Morning Walk , Perth , 1975-05-14

[in car]

Prabhupāda: Sixteen hundred thousand. And what is their calculation?

Gaṇeśa: 250,000.

Amogha: Miles from the earth.

Prabhupāda: 455,000?

Paramahaṁsa: 250,000 miles from the earth. They say it is very near the earth and that the sun is very far away. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...circumstances, it is now doubtful whether they are going to the moon planet.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. [break]

[on walk]

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Amogha: In the newspaper yesterday there was an article about New York City. The city government is going bankrupt because they... They have asked the President for 1,500 million dollars emergency aid. Because of crime and dirtiness and noise, all the rich people are leaving New York, and they can't get any taxes from the poor people. So they don't have money to pay to run the city.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen. New York is very dilapidated, many quarters. And especially Second Avenue, those are very dirty. The... On the Fifth Avenue, that Central Park is also very dirty. This civilization will collapse. It cannot be run on. Fourth-class men, I tell. Because it is conducted by the fourth-class men. Ask that gentleman why they are asking. Are they not fourth-class men? They could not manage?

Śrutakīrti: That man last night admitted. He said, "Now I must leave and do my fourth-class activities."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fourth class. This is the proof. Fourth-class men administering... Just like misadministration not immediately detected. After some time, when the case is unmanageable, it is detected. Therefore fourth-class men. Simply these Western people, they know how to earn money by hook and crook. So, so long the money is there it is covered, the fourth class. And when the money is finished, they are exposed, fourth-class men. They're simply covered by money. No social structure, no spiritual understanding, no character---nothing of the sort. Still India, so fallen, you..., 98% people, living, husband and wife, very peacefully. And in the Western countries, after six months' marriage, divorce. Are they not fourth class? Even the husband and wife cannot continue peaceful life, what to speak of others. Now this rascal Jawaharlal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society.

Otherwise in the Hindu society, separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight, everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. [laughter] But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. Even in the life of Gandhi there was fight between husband and wife, and the Gandhi one day drove his wife, "Get out from my home." So she was put into the street, and she began to cry, "Where shall I go?" And then Gandhi ans..., "Come on." Yes. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight, and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? The divorce mean it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases.

Paramahaṁsa: Just like that girl who came two days ago, that Indian girl. Her parents were separated. Now she is living thousands of miles away with some boy.

Prabhupāda: They are this part of Indian, the Fiji Indians. They have learned the art of divorce.

Paramahaṁsa: They are very Western, westernized.

Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can the position be reconciled if in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one of the two, the husband or the wife, wants to enjoy sense gratification, but the other does not? Should there be separation then?

Prabhupāda: No. They should be trained up. Sense enjoyment means not advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as one is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his sense enjoyment spirit will be reduced. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca [SB 11.2.42]. The test is, how you are advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the proportionate diminishing of sense enjoyment. That is the test. Just like cure of the disease means diminishing the fever, temperature. This is the test.

Gaṇeśa: What if that fever is not being diminished?

Prabhupāda: Then he should try to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, ins... of sixteen rounds, sixty-four rounds. That is the way. Sixteen round is the minimum. Otherwise, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was 300,000. So you have to increase. That is the only remedy. If one has got determination, he will make progress without any trouble. That determination is very difficult, that determination, "I must be Kṛṣṇa conscious fully." That determination. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. [pause] So they have asked to the central government, federal government, help?

Amogha: In New York? Yes, they asked from the President, President Ford.

Prabhupāda: That is federal government.

Amogha: Federal government, yes. And President Ford said no.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Amogha: Yeah, he said no. He said, "If I give New York money, then every city will come for money..."

Prabhupāda: Yes...

Amogha: "...when they have some trouble." He said, "You made the trouble. Now you work it out."

Prabhupāda: That's good answer. "You fourth-class man, you have created the situation. Now you save the situation."

Amogha: They used to borrow money from the banks every year, the city government of New York. They used to borrow money from the banks.

Prabhupāda: Bank has refused?

Amogha: Yes. They won't loan any more money because they know the tax money won't come in.

Prabhupāda: Just see the position. The bank is refusing loan to the municipal corporation, city corporation. They have no credit.

Śrutakīrti: So that means the city will increase their taxes on the public.

Prabhupāda: But if the public is moving from the city, where is the source of tax?

Amogha: That's the big problem. All the rich people are leaving because they're getting so much tax and so many other problems. And big business also is leaving.

Prabhupāda: Where they are leaving?

Amogha: Just to the suburbs, outside the city.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śrutakīrti: Also they move their headquarters to other cities, newer cities. Just like in Dallas, that area. Atlanta.

Prabhupāda: This artificial way of life will lead to such disasters. It is a most artificial way of life. It is not natural way. [sound of bus passing] This bus goes this way---I see every day vacant, no passenger, and still, they have to run as scheduled. They cannot stop it. That means so much wastage. Not only bus; I have seen aeroplane. From Nairobi to London, you have seen? We were five passengers or four passengers. No passengers.

Śrutakīrti: Four or three, maybe three.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen? Yes. Such a big plane, consuming so much petrol, vacant. No passenger except ourselves.

Śrutakīrti: Many times we have had that experience.

Gaṇeśa: That is what is happening with these big planes. They're building these big...

Paramahaṁsa: 747's.

Gaṇeśa: No...

Amogha: Can't remember the name. You mean the supersonic ones?

Gaṇeśa: Yeah, the big jets, and no one can... There's not enough people to fly in them. Therefore they have to finish them. They have to scrap their big jets. They're not of any use because there's not enough people to fly. They're coming to the end of their technological research. Also in the cars they cannot... There's one car, the Volkswagen. They cannot refine the body any more, so now they're simply making the same car each year without any change in the design, because they've reached the perfection of their design and they're not making any more advancement. They're coming to a halt.

Prabhupāda: When they will come to a halt to their sex desire? They have designed so many ways, sex desire. The... Who was telling me that some beach, all naked women are there?

Amogha: Oh, yes. In Australia also. They reserve a certain beach for naked bathers.

Prabhupāda: So this is also sex desire. When it will come to end? Most artificial civilization. And the man who came [referring to previous guest], he is meant for solving the problems, huh?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Usually those type of persons, they just study the problems, but...

Prabhupāda: So what is the study? Anyone can study. Just like we are giving = "It is a most artificial civilization."

Śrutakīrti: He's drawing a big salary for studying. He's getting a big research salary.

Paramahaṁsa: And he's teaching others how to study the problems, but there's no solution. They have no solution actually.

Prabhupāda: The solution is there. They won't take it. Solution is there, that everyone produce your own food. There is so much land; utilize it. The solution is there. No. They want to sit down on the table, chair, in a very nice compartment, and making solution. They won't go.

Paramahaṁsa: He was saying that your solution was too simple. He said that people will not accept it because it is too simple.

Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. They will say it is primitive. That is the only solution. According to the Vedic system, you cannot use anything which you cannot produce. Suppose this [referring to tape recorder] we are using, but according the Vedic system we should not use it because I cannot produce it. Then the whole solution is there. Nobody will manufacture this, because there will be no customer. If I refuse this use of this machine, thinking that "I cannot produce it; I should not use it," then where is the customer? The so-called industry will automatically stop, and he has to go to the village outlying.

Paramahaṁsa: Some of the orthodox hippies have this philosophy, and they reject all machines and things that they cannot make themselves.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. It is good. But they are not led by good leader. Otherwise next alternative is this, that you have to give up this artificial way of civilization. Now this land is vacant. We can produce so much food grains if it is utilized. Fruits, flower, vegetables, grains---we can produce. This land is very good land for producing potato, watermelon, this. Very good land. But who is doing that? This is the suitable land for producing watermelon. And watermelon is such a nice thing, and potato. You boil potato and take watermelon, you have full [indistinct] supplied. And very innocent and simple food.

Amogha: In one science magazine they have published recently there's an article by a man who says we must eat meat because the plants don't have any fatty tissues for making brain tissue, so they say...

Prabhupāda: Rascal. So your brain is causing disaster; still you are developing brain? [laughter] Your brain is causing bankruptcy, and still you want to develop this rubbish brain? Begging money, "You give us money so that we can maintain"? And what is the use of this brain? Burn this brain. Advise him that "You better burn your brain so that you may not create any more disaster." To keep his brain, one animal must be sacrificed. And the brain work is this, that they are creating disaster. What is the use of this brain?

Amogha: He says that the brain of man is bigger because man has been eating meat for so long.

Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. "A blind man is leading other blind men."

Gaṇeśa: Instead of using the land to grow potatoes and watermelons, they're simply using it to build more offices for tables and chairs to study the situation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [pause] Time will be more, more dangerous in this Kali-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic.

Paramahaṁsa: But if they actually go to the forest, then that will be one step.

Prabhupāda: No, it is disappointment. It is simply disappoint... That is not solution. But people will do that. When the one is mad, he doesn't know what to do---"Let me go to the forest." Achinna dāra-draviṇaṁ gacchanti giri-kānanam, it is said. Giri means mountain, and kānanam means forest. Giving up their hearth and home... They are already giving up the home, wife, children, and going away. Everybody doing that.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, in so many cases the hippies, they went to the forest, and because there was no standard of spiritual life there, they became discouraged also. They ran into the same problems in the forest that they had in the cities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So therefore many of these communities that they started back in, about ten years ago, 1960s, they have all folded up because there was nothing to hold them together.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no engagement. Therefore we are proposing that eat nicely, live nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the engagement. But they have no such engagement. How they will live? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12]. Every living entity wants some pleasure, but this pleasure is finished. Therefore athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now they seek... Let them seek out pleasure from Brahmān. So that they do not know. Now the situation is then no monies. Then they will tax. Those who are living, they will be disturbed by taxation. They have no other means. Kara-piditaḥ. Kara means tax, and pidita means disturbed. They will be like that.

Paramahaṁsa: And they will also be forced out.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Such a huge city, if there is no money, they will tax those who are living there more and more. That is the only alternative. If you want actually peaceful life, then produce your own necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and live peacefully. This is the only solution. There is no other solution. What is the use of running fifty miles by car to go to one's office and sit down in the office and make plan how to exploit others? [indistinct] This is the business = "Make some plan, bluff people, advertisement, and money will come." This is their business. They are not giving anything, simply bluffing. Just like crossword. They are engaged in making solution. You know that, crossword?

Paramahaṁsa: The crossword? You mean the puzzle?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the whole day they are making solution. This is their means of earning money. I have seen it. [pause] [chuckles] He has taken that word very seriously, "fourth-class men." The whole civilization is condemned and producing fourth-class men. And that's a fact.

Paramahaṁsa: The intelligent man will have to admit it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: With all the universities and high-class schools they're simply producing...

Prabhupāda: Fourth-class men.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: They are discussing in the university homosex. They are advanced. Advancement of education. Just see. They are not even fourth-class men; they are animals, producing so many animals, that's all, dogs and hogs. [break] ...in the beginning, śamaḥ. Śamaḥ, damaḥ---first two business. Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning. Now they are so much sexually disturbed, they're discussing about the profit of homosex. Where is first-class men?

Paramahaṁsa: They say that homosex keeps the balance of things because...

Prabhupāda: Yes, fourth-class man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not going to hear of it. A fourth-class man's philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear them---that's not good. They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth class has got some position, but they are narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil his time to hear about their philosophy? [pause] [break]

Amogha: In that verse it says, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam [Bg. 18.42]. What is the difference between jñānam and vijñānam?

Prabhupāda: Jñānam means theoretical; vijñānam means practical.

Gaṇeśa: Saṅkīrtana movement is vijñānam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [pause] [break] He is in goodness, but sometimes he is attacked by the other two base qualities, passion and ignorance. Then he falls down. Where there is chance of being contaminated, that is not pure goodness. Pure goodness is never contaminated. That is wanted.

Paramahaṁsa: So pure goodness means those eight qualities mentioned in the Gītā but without any contamination of the lower qualities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the material world, goodness is prone to be contaminated. In the spiritual world, the other two qualities, they are not existing. So there is no question of contamination. Here all men are covered by these two base qualities---all men and animal, everyone---passion and ignorance. Therefore, first of all they have to be brought to the platform of goodness. And if they can keep goodness uncontaminated, they are transferred to the spiritual world. [break]

Gaṇeśa: Just like you say, some of the devotees, they fall down they are striving to be in the mode of goodness. If they're sincere, they still fall down?

Prabhupāda: If their are sincere, how they become fall down? Their are not sincere; therefore they fall down.

Amogha: Madhudviṣa Swami was telling us once that sincerity must be combined with spiritual strength.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual strength means sincerity, and sincerity means spiritual strength. If I promise before the fire, before the Deity, before my spiritual master that "I shall observe the rules and regulation," and if I don't follow, then where is my sincerity?

Gaṇeśa: But the devotees, they're trying to be in the mode of goodness. In the Bhagavad-gītā...

Prabhupāda: Well, the trying... Then why do you take initiation and promise? You are trying. First of all, you be fixed up. Why do you cheat Kṛṣṇa, the spiritual master, the fire? If you are not fixed up, you should not take initiation. Go on.

Gaṇeśa: In the Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna asks...

Prabhupāda: No, you can fall down unconsciously. But if you fall consciously, that is cheating. I do not want. I am trying to keep myself steady. But still if I fall, that is excused. But if you purposely... Just like the Christian atonement. They go to the church and admit, "Yes, I have done these sinful activities. So I pay you something. Excuse it." That is not sincerity. And again, next week, he does the same thing. That is not sincerity.

Paramahaṁsa: What would an example of unconscious falldown be?

Prabhupāda: Unconscious falldown, that... Suppose I am prone to..., I was very much fond of smoking, but I have given up. So in a society there is smoking, so I become induced. He offers me cigarette, and unconsciously I smoke. Then I must repent, "Oh, what I have done?" That is excused. But if I secretly smoke and outwardly I show I am a devotee, then what is this? This is cheating.

Gaṇeśa: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sometimes the living entities are compelled to act because of lust.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gaṇeśa: Even unwillingly.

Prabhupāda: That is... Unwillingly, when it is done, that is excused. And willingly, when it is done, it is cheating. That..., in your America there was a Moral Rearmament Movement. So it flourished for some days. Their process was admit, admission of sinful activities, that Christian method = "So I will admit. That's all. Again I do. 'Yes, I have done this.' Then my all reaction is gone. Then again I do it." That is described in the Bhāgavata, kuñjara-śaucavat [SB 6.1.10], the elephant, elephant's cleanliness. Elephants cleanse very nicely in the water, and as soon as come on the land, they will take dust and throw, immediately. So what is the use of cleansing? Kuñjara-śaucavat. You cleanse; again you become unclean. Then what is the use of cleaning?

Amogha: Many devotees wish... Now they have become devotees and have had so much bad training, they wish that they could have gone to gurukula so they would not be so mistrained.

Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy in Sydney, he has been a devotee for a few years, three or four years, but now he has fallen away because of lusty association, I suppose, or bad association. So is this unwilling or willing? Because he has become attracted to women again.

Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our Society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the Society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no men should live in the temple. That is the...

[in car]

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Christians have one place for the women and another place for the men. But we find the women can't organize themselves very well, so it is difficult to organize something like that also.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we do not give up lusty desires, either we keep separately or together, the fall down in there. All these nuns, their are complicated, although they live separately. There was a convent school in Calcutta, and it was detected that the head mistress was supplying women outside for business. Now one brahmacārīṇi āśrama is started. This means that the authority of this āśrama, they supply young women to rich, richer class, and they give money. Business is going on.

Paramahaṁsa: Where is that āśrama?

Prabhupāda: Brahmacārīṇi.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh. In Calcutta?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only in India. They have got many branches.

Paramahaṁsa: They call them brahmacārīṇi?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because nowadays almost every girl is unmarried. So they have devised this āśrama, you "Come here." And women can be sold at any cost. People are lusty. So one woman supplied, he pays hundred rupees, two hundred rupees. Business is going on.

Paramahaṁsa: They come for pilgrimage.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They will be sent to your house. Pay for it. Hotel. In the Kali-yuga the sex impulse is so strong, but it is utilized in so many ways. The yogīs, svāmīs, the school, college, philosophy---at the end, sex, that's all. That example, dog's tail. Whatever you do, greasing, the tail will be like this. [break]

[out of car] I think it is sooner. It takes time less than for going there.

Gaṇeśa: Oh, I came the short way.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he came by the short way.

Gaṇeśa: Yes. [break]

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma. [end]