Room Conversation , Perth , 1975-05-13

Amogha: He said that... When we were walking to the car, he said... I was talking to him a little bit about it, and I gave him some magazines to read. He said it is very convincing argument about the..., why the problems are all there because of the bodily concept of life. So he said, "It is a very convincing point of view and very thought-provoking." So I think he listened very well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if this kind of man will understand---they are in position---that will be a great... He is better than so many clergies.

Amogha: [laughs] Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes, because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do...

Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards the animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you have given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse = prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this," "I am..." What is...? You are all rascals. Nature is working differently. That they do not know. They do not believe in the nature's authority. They think, "We have become authority." What is that?


prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
kartāham iti manyate

Translation = "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is pulled by the ear by the nature, "You rascal, you have associated with this quality. You do this. You must accept this body." That he does not know. "Now you have acted like dog, you accept this body of a dog." This is nature's creation. You cannot say, "No, no, no, I don't want this body." No, you must. "You acted like dog, you take this body of a dog." That he does not know. He is thinking, "I am all in all; I am independent." That is foolishness. The whole world, big, big scientists and philosophers, all in ignorance, and they are being pulled by the ear by nature. That they do not know. What is the purport I have given?

Amogha: Purport = "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead..." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law. And what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization = they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. And they are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering.

In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water. He doesn't know that "I may become a tree like this." Then he must be... Why there are varieties of life? This is different type of punishment for different kinds of sinful activities. And he doesn't care for sinful activities. He got the human form of body, he doesn't care. Saintly persons, they are coming as Caitanya Mahāprabhu or Buddha or Christ. They are warning, "You do not do this." No, they will do it. So who is responsible for his sufferings? He is responsible. And so long he has got this short duration of life, fifty or sixty years or utmost hundred years, he is thinking, "I am free. Whatever I want, I can do," and making life risky. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. He is not independent. He knows that. Still, he will declare independent and suffer. This is the position. He is not independent; that he knows very well. But still, he will act independently. Is it not the position? Who can think that he is independent unless he is a madman? Hmm? Are you independent?

Amogha: No.

Prabhupāda: Nobody is independent. And still, everyone is thinking independent, "I can do anything I like." Yesterday morning we were talking. You are independent. That is, means, misuse of independence. Just like in a state every citizen is independent, but dependent on the state laws. If he forgets that, that "I am not dependent on the state laws," then he is foolish. Similarly, if one does not know that "The nature's law is the God's law, state laws; I cannot violate it," then he is sober? Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. One man is dying. A dhīra knows that he is changing his body; he is not dying. He will get another body. Dhīra, sober. And one who is not sober, he says, "No, life is finished." Or he can imagine he is going to heaven or hell. But a dhīra knows what is going to happen to him. If he was in the material modes of nature, goodness, then he is going to higher planetary system. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. From śāstra we can understand. If he is in passion, then he will stay in this material world. And if he is in ignorance, then he is going to be animal. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. He knows. So he understood what is meant by first-class men? [referring to Justin Murphy]

Amogha: He seemed to understand a lot. I don't know if he could understand completely, but...

Prabhupāda: No...

Paramahaṁsa: As he walked out the door he said, "Now I have to go back and lead my fourth-class life." [laughter]

Amogha: Yes, he said that.

Prabhupāda: [laughing] Then he has understood. Yes, it is all fourth-class men. He is considered a first-class man in the society. We say to him that "You are a fourth-class man." On what strength we can say like that? And he has to admit. That is our philosophy. Any first-class man, so-called first-class man, we can also say that "You are a fourth-class man," and he will agree. And if he admits, then he becomes first-class man. Then he can make progress. "I am living, a fourth-class man. I must be a first-class man." That is knowledge. So he was asking you, "Are you living first class?"

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What was his question?

Amogha: In the room?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Yes, he said, "Are you all becoming first-class men? You want to become first-class men?" Before he left he said it was very nice meeting... And he looked and he said, "It's nice meeting you all."

Prabhupāda: So we are trying to make some first-class men. That's all. This is our aim. Even if he is fourth-class man, it doesn't matter. If he takes up the training, he becomes first class. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti: even if he is not liberated, he goes in higher planetary system amongst the demigods. Then there he gets more advanced. He goes to Brahmā. If he is not directly transferred to the spiritual world, then he gets this facilities. And with Brahmā, at the end of this creation, annihilation, they go to the spiritual world.

Gaṇeśa: Just by becoming first-class men.

Prabhupāda: That is described. Śamo damas titikṣā [Bg. 18.42], that... You were not here, hearing?

Gaṇeśa: I was here.

Prabhupāda: That is first class.

Gaṇeśa: So just by becoming first-class men you can go to the heavenly planets?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is meant for a first-class men. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti [Bg. 14.18]. Ūrdhvam means higher planetary system.

Gaṇeśa: Are we not training all classes of men? In Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required = he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?

Gaṇeśa: But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary.

Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years old.

Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRO. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: And he is in a good position materially.

Gaṇeśa: You spoke to three of those men in Melbourne last time.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Amogha: Those scientists who came to see you last year in Melbourne were also from that organization.

Gaṇeśa: The same place.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Amogha: There were three men, and you made them eat the gulābjāmun.

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah. He was there?

Amogha: No, no. But they were from the same organization, the Melbourne branch.

Prabhupāda: Oh. The some scientists came.

Amogha: Yes. They were from the same...

Prabhupāda: Oh, he remembers. Then that man remembers, I gave him gulābjāmun.

Amogha: No, not this man.

Prabhupāda: No, the other man.

Amogha: Oh, yes. He sure did. That's a all over Australia organization.

Prabhupāda: Good organization.

Gaṇeśa: They are inquisitive, because they come to see you.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you did not invite him?

Amogha: Yes, but he would not come unless he was interested.

Prabhupāda: In the modern society there is no idea of first-class man, what is first-class man. They take it, a minister is first-class man. A first-class man is by these qualities = śamo damo titikṣā. It is not by the fat salary. By the first-class qualities.

Amogha: Some people, like this man, they notice that qualities are degrading and natural resources are degrading, so many problems are coming. But they don't know what to do. They're simply reporting that "There we go down."

Prabhupāda: They cannot counteract. The counteraction is here in our Society. They should accept it. Then it will be all right. So become first-class man. Everyone will hear you. And you can face any so-called first-class man and talk with him straightforward that "You are fourth class." [laughter]

[devotees offer obeisances] [end]