Morning Walk , Perth , 1975-05-12

[in car]

Prabhupāda: They have not gone to the moon planet.

Paramahaṁsa: [laughs] Really?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is far, far away. Their calculation is wrong. They are going to a wrong planet.

Paramahaṁsa: It must be the Rahu planet.

Prabhupāda: Yes, or something else. Not moon planet.

Paramahaṁsa: How many...

Prabhupāda: It is above the sun planet.

Paramahaṁsa: Moon planet is further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh. Because they say that the moon planet is the closest planet to the earth. That is their calculation. And they say that it orbits around the earth, and then that the earth orbits the sun.

Prabhupāda: All wrong. What is the... According to them, what is the distance of sun planet?

Paramahaṁsa: Sun planet is 93,000,000 miles.

Gaṇeśa: They say the moon planet is only 250,000 miles.

Prabhupāda: It is wrong thing.

Paramahaṁsa: Is their calculation for the distance of the sun wrong also?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: 93,000,000? It says in the Bhāgavatam exactly what the distance?

Prabhupāda: The whole universe, diameter, is pañcaśat-koṭi-yojana. One yojana equal to eight miles, and one koti is ten miles, er, ten million. So pañcaśata, fifty into ten million into eight.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. So it's fifty crores yojana. Fifty crores yojanas?

Prabhupāda: Yes, fifty crore yojanas, pañcaśat. So one yojana equal to eight miles, one crore equal to ten million.

Paramahaṁsa: That's eighty million.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: Eighty million times fifty.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Means 400,000,000

Śrutakīrti: Hmm. More than that. Four billion.

Paramahaṁsa: Four thousand million, which is four billion?

Śrutakīrti: Four billion miles.

Paramahaṁsa: Four billion miles is the diameter.

Prabhupāda: Is the diameter.

Paramahaṁsa: You gave that in The Teachings of Lord Caitanya also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the sun is in the middle.

Paramahaṁsa: So two billion miles from the edge of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they say? 93,000,000.

Śrutakīrti: That's from the earth to the sun. That's not from the sun to the edge. That's from earth to the sun.

Amogha: Is the earth near the edge of the universe?

Prabhupāda: No. There are many other planets down. Seven planetary system.

Paramahaṁsa: The higher planetary systems are closest to the sun? And then...

Prabhupāda: No, sun is the middle. This is circumference. Sun is the middle. And the whole diameter is fifty lakhs and... What is...? And moon is above, 200,000 yojanas above the sun.

Paramahaṁsa: Ah. 200,000 yojanas. That means [calculates] 1,600,000 miles above the sun.

Prabhupāda: Above the sun. How they'll go? [laughter] They are going to the wrong... Bluffing only. I am repeatedly saying, they have never gone, simply bluff. How it is that they brought some dust? So brilliant, it is blazing, full. There is fire blazing.

[on walk]

Paramahaṁsa: They say that they've measured the moon and that it's very small compared to the earth, very tiny.

Prabhupāda: All wrong.

Paramahaṁsa: If it's a longer distance than the sun but still it appears so big in the sky, it must be a very large planet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly Venus and others, they are also above.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, above the sun.

Prabhupāda: The sun is moving there, near about that. [japa] This is one universe, and there are thousands and millions of universe. Jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. That is God's creation. And they are becoming God = "I am God." Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya [Bs. 5.48]. If we simply think of the creation of God, we can appreciate how great He is.

Amogha: That's why it's described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: They say, "God is great," but they do not know how great He is. That is explained in the Vedic literature. Of course, those who are saying "God is great," they are pious. And those who are saying that "I am God," how foolish they are. Therefore I say that anyone who says, "I am God," immediately kick with your shoes on his face. Such a cheater.

Paramahaṁsa: There is... One of the disciples of Guru Maharaj-ji, Balyogeshwar, is in Perth. They have their center here. And he is giving lectures daily, and many people are attending.

Prabhupāda: That he is God.

Paramahaṁsa: Well...

Amogha: There was an article in the paper yesterday from India that says that the Indian court has banned Guru Maharaj-ji from leaving India. They have issued an order that he must stay until the court has finished, because his brother is suing. Because his brother published a photo showing Guru Maharaj-ji embracing and kissing an American girl in the paper. And the... So the Guru Maharaj-ji published a picture of his brother doing the same thing. But they say it was a fake photo, so the court is holding him in India, and they're having a legal battle, suing each other to see who is God.

Prabhupāda: Farce.

Paramahaṁsa: It seems like these demons who say that they are God, eventually they will end up destroying each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [pause] Now they are fools, rascal, bluffing, but even the scientists, they are also bluffing. Now Russia and America combined together, going? Just see where they are going. [pause]

Amogha: There's one article about scientists in the paper.. It says, "Wonder food will help control heart disease." They say they have a new way of feeding beef and poultry so that the food now, when they eat the beef, it won't give them heart attack. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Amogha: They say if they feed them a special diet they have found it changes the cholesterol level in the beef, so if they eat it, they won't get heart attack like they used to. And it says, "The director of the National Heart Foundation, Ralph Reeder, said he believed the process was one of the most significant contributions in recent years toward controlling heart disease. 'It should not be taken lightly by skeptics. It is a world's first,' he said."

Paramahaṁsa: Now they are also thinking that different types of meat cause cancer, not only heart disease but cancer.

Gaṇeśa: What have the scientists got to gain?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gaṇeśa: What have the scientists got to gain by bluffing us with these...?

Prabhupāda: Position. Material world means they want some material gain, some adoration and some fame. That's all. This is material world. So if by bluffing you I get some material profit and adoration and fame, why shall I not do it? Everyone is doing that.

Paramahaṁsa: That's the cheating propensity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In material world they have come to imitate God---adoration, fame, material profit. Just like this man. He has come to this country. He is getting money, he is getting woman, and becoming God amongst the fools. He is satisfied, that's all. This is not gain? If I get woman, money and adoration, is it not gain for me?

Gaṇeśa: Yes, just like Hiraṇyakaśipu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Materialistic man means he wants all these things in different way. Somebody is becoming God, somebody is becoming philosopher, somebody is becoming scientist, in this way. Real purpose is these three things = lābha-pūjā-pratiṣṭhā [Cc. Madhya 19.159]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And our philosophy? We don't want anything of this. Just see. Negation. Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. Say... All denial, "We don't want." That is Vaiṣṇavism. Then what do you want? "We want simply to serve Kṛṣṇa." This is our position. They don't want to serve Kṛṣṇa; they want to imitate Kṛṣṇa. And that is going on.

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many times when I am seeing professors or students also, they seem to think that traditional Hinduism, or whatever they think it is, they say that the Māyāvādī philosophy, or monist, they think this is traditional, and..., because there's so many translations of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Upaniṣads they've read, and they're all impersonal. So I was wondering what is the best way to convince them that actually..., that is not actually the original tradition of understanding?

Prabhupāda: How they are becoming foolish, that they are reading Bhagavad-gītā and they are accepting original tradition of the Māyāvāda? In the original tradition of Bhagavad-gītā it is said, Kṛṣṇa said, ahaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: "I said." "I am person." How these rascals are accepting imperson? Why do they read Bhagavad-gītā? If they have got different theory, let them differently... They are cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is popular; therefore they are taking advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and pushing on impersonalism. But here the tradition begins, ahaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ. Where is imperson? So if they want to be cheated willingly, who can save them? They are reading Bhagavad-gītā and deviating from the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Then what is the meaning?

Amogha: They don't know. They simply...

Prabhupāda: That means they are so rascal, that... You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You must take the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are taking other words? What business you have got?

Amogha: They think by majority, most people think like this...

Prabhupāda: Majority or minority, it doesn't matter. But why you should take Bhagavad-gītā to establish your rascal theories? That means you are cheating.

Amogha: But they think that's the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: That's the meaning how?

Amogha: That's what they think. They think, because they've read so many commentaries...

Prabhupāda: Why do they think? If I have written one book, my words are my meaning. Why you should give meaning? I shall kick on your face. What right you have got? You write another book. Why should you take my book and give your meaning? What is this?

Amogha: These professors didn't write the books, but they read all these Swami this and that books' translations. And then they think, "Well, all these svāmīs say it's like this..."

Prabhupāda: No. They should be conscious that if you read one book, you must understand what the author says. Why should you bring something else to understand that book? What is this? If you want to say something else, you write your own book or bring that book. Why you should take my book? If you want to smoke gañjā, why should you take my hand? You have got your hand. You smoke gañjā. What is this? I take your hand and smoke gañjā? [laughter]

Paramahaṁsa: But they say that "We need the help of these different commentaries to understand such deep philosophy."

Prabhupāda: Why should you? Why should you? Why should you take Bhagavad-gītā? There are different philosophers. They have got different theories. You make your theories. But why should you make your theories on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā?

Amogha: Well, they say they want to study the Bhagavad-gītā...

Prabhupāda: But that is not... If you study, you study as it is.

Amogha: They can't read Sanskrit.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't know. They think, "We have to accept from these different svāmīs. They are the authorities."

Prabhupāda: Why you should? If you do not know Sanskrit, why don't you learn Sanskrit, one who knows Sanskrit? What is this nonsense? I say, "Give me a glass of water," and you do not know Sanskrit, you say, "No, it is not meant for him; it is meant for me." What is this?

Śrutakīrti: But the professors aren't doing this. They want to read the Bhagavad-gītā, so they're accepting these Māyāvādī philosophers' interpretations. We're speaking of the professors, not of the ones writing Bhagavad-gītā interpretations.

Prabhupāda: So why Māyāvāda... Interpretation is required when you cannot understand. But when the things are understood very clearly... Just like we had been in Kurukṣetra. That place is there for millions and millions of years. And why one should interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body"? Why should we accept this meaning? Kurukṣetra is already there. Everyone is going. And if somebody interprets, "No, Kurukṣetra means this body," so why I shall be so foolish to accept this interpretation?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, people say that they're not sure whether it's a symbolic meaning or an actual meaning.

Prabhupāda: That is your conjecture. But when you read book, you should understand the wording of the book. You cannot conjecture in such...

Paramahaṁsa: Because they say some of the Vedic literatures...

Prabhupāda: That means willingly they want to become fool.

Paramahaṁsa: There are so many great symbolic literatures.

Prabhupāda: You are seeing this green. If you interpret, "It is not green; it is white," what is this? Can you interpret like that? It is green, and "No, in my interpretation it is white. What you are seeing, it is not actual seeing." You can go on saying like that. But I am an ordinary man. Why shall I take it white? It is green. That's all.

Śrutakīrti: But that is the way of great writing, to write in symbolism. That is...

Paramahaṁsa: Great literary works are done in that way.

Amogha: They call it "writing between the lines." There's some hidden meaning. Therefore it is very deep.

Paramahaṁsa: And so if Kṛṣṇa was such a great philosopher, then naturally He would have also used those literary talents to write in between the lines.

Prabhupāda: All right, you become very good bluffer. That's all. We don't accept. All the ācāryas, they did not accept, those who are authorities. Vyāsadeva, he did not accept these foolish theories. Nārada never accepted. Recent ācāryas---Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Caitanya. Why shall I accept these third-class professors? Kick on their face. We have got authority to support this.

Gaṇeśa: I think they want to interpret Bhagavad-gītā because they do not want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is the idea. That is the real purpose. They want to kill Kṛṣṇa. That is the endeavor of Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa, that "We shall kill Kṛṣṇa." And ultimately they become killed. Their faith is like that.

Amogha: Their whole idea of Indian history, of Vedic history, is completely perverted. When we say five thousand years ago Vyāsadeva compiled this in writing, they say, "There was no civilization five thousand..." They said, "Only two thousand years ago there was some tribes, and they were not very moral," and things like this, all completely nonsense, because they misread the Bhāgavata and things like this. And then they teach some of the students these crazy ideas. Not all of them, but I talked to some who teach like this.

Prabhupāda: The more you fight with these rascals, the more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are a fighting soldier. Kṛṣṇa very much appreciates. [break] So you take Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation, and I take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So who is right? Who will decide this? You interpret in your own way. I don't interpret. I take it as it is. Now we are two parties. So who is correct?

Amogha: They say because so many others...

Prabhupāda: No, no, there are two parties, that's all. "Others" means one who interprets, that is one party, and there is one party who does not interpret. So who is correct?

Amogha: They say, "We are right because we are more." They say, "We are many..."

Prabhupāda: Many asses means there is an opinion? Many asses give some opinion. Is that opinion?

Śrutakīrti: They say so.

Amogha: They say "We are Ph.D., and there are so many svāmīs" and things like this.

Prabhupāda: Oh, majority.

Paramahaṁsa: Democracy. Democratic method. Majority rules.

Gaṇeśa: The result will show.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That democracy is the ruination of civilization.

Amogha: But actually many of them appreciate the actual translation because it's so much more clear. It's just that before, they didn't read it. Many of them, now they are reading it, they appreciate it very much

Prabhupāda: So we want to remain in the minority. We don't want to be in the majority.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, anybody who is serious about spiritual life will accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and the others take all the other spiritualists'...

Amogha: Actually, these professors aren't interested in spiritual life. They're just thinking. They just think and talk, but they're not interested in spiritual life either way. They don't follow the other commentary...

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual life.

Paramahaṁsa: They consider spiritual life as simply a department of philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, psychology.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is reality, they do not understand. They take it as something else, mental position. [break]

[no audio]

Gaṇeśa: All of these gurus are being exposed. Just like Guru Maharaj-ji.

Paramahaṁsa: Generally people don't believe it if someone says he is God.

Prabhupāda: The first thing is = what wonderful thing he has done, that he is God? People have no common sense. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God. There are so many wonderful things done by Kṛṣṇa. Now what has he done that we accept that he is God? He has fallen in love with his secretary; any common sweeper also becomes.

Paramahaṁsa: That is his līlā.

Prabhupāda: The sweeper's līlā. [laughter] [long pause]

[audio resumes]

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes if we go out to preach and we go away from the association of devotees, what can we do to make sure that we...

Prabhupāda: You go at least two. Don't go alone. That is the system. When you go to preach, you must go at least two. If possible, more than two. Don't go alone. That is not the system. [break] They... This Guru Mahārāja [Guru Maharaj-ji] cannot go back to India?

Amogha: No, he cannot leave India. He went to India to struggle with his brother and mother.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So now it is...

Amogha: Now the court says, "You cannot leave India until we settle this." They've issued a court order not to leave India.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He can remain there. [break]

Prabhupāda: The case is... Who is the complainer?

Amogha: Well, originally his... The story is something that the father started the whole movement, and then he died.

Prabhupāda: He was a great cheat.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, chief cheat.

Amogha: Yes. And his wife cheater, she wanted to carry it on, and her eldest son was named God, or the leader. And..., but she thought that this Guru Maharaj-ji was better, more appealing to the people. So she changed and said, "He can be the leader." Then he started the Western movement. And then he began... She noticed that he was becoming playboy instead of God. And so she began the trouble in India, and she claimed that he was no longer suitable because he was eating meat, and intoxication, and becoming a playboy, all these things. Dancing. So she started the trouble in India, and she wants to reinstate the elder brother as the leader and take away this, the younger one, Guru Maharaj-ji. So that's how the trouble started.

Prabhupāda: So that her business may go on.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: First of all she tried the youngest son. When he is failure, now replace him.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, he was a good investment. She made a lot of money on the younger son, probably more than she would have on this older one. Because the older one is not so attractive. He's kind of ugly. This younger one is very...

Prabhupāda: Attractive?

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, kind of cute. Everyone thought he was cute. [laughter] Young, fat...

Amogha: So now he has gone to India to try to win the battle, and in the course he has been sued, and the court order says he must stay until the suit is finished.

Gaṇeśa: When the movement first came out to Australia about three or four years ago, one of his disciples, who was a girl, she came through Perth, and at that time I was arguing Bhagavad-gītā with her, but she could not understand. She could not see that it was Kṛṣṇa to surrender to and not Guru Maharaj-ji.

Amogha: Whenever we place a good argument with them, they say, "Yes, but all these words are just words, and actually it is beyond words. The truth is beyond words. So never mind."

Prabhupāda: You are talking words. You are not beyond.

Paramahaṁsa: Then they should not talk anything.

Prabhupāda: "Please stop your talking, because you are not beyond; you are talking also like me."

Paramahaṁsa: They say that the Absolute Truth is beyond words. That way we don't have to explain anything about it.

Prabhupāda: So we don't say beyond words. You say. But you are talking; therefore you cannot speak about Absolute Truth.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they don't. They only talk nonsense. They don't like to argue about the Absolute Truth. They'll only talk nonsense.

Prabhupāda: Why you are holding meetings? Big, big meeting arrangements, why do you make?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they hold the meeting and they say, "You come to us and take knowledge," that's all.

Prabhupāda: That is word. That is word.

Amogha: But they say it's something else.

Prabhupāda: You are using words, canvassing. Why do you say "beyond words"? The word is helping you.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say, "The actual knowledge is beyond words. You come and take knowledge from us, and you will see that it's beyond words."

Prabhupāda: The beginning is words. So where is the absolute knowledge?

Paramahaṁsa: They say, "That you have to take from us." If you ask them to describe it, they say, "No, no, you have to..."

Prabhupāda: This is not... Better hate to talk with them.

Paramahaṁsa: Better to...

Prabhupāda: Yes, don't talk with them. So lower-grade men they are, it is useless to talk with him.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: God is detained by the word of court. He has no power to defy the words of court.

Paramahaṁsa: The judge will judge him.

Prabhupāda: And he is God.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He will probably bribe the judge. That will be the real...

Prabhupāda: That is possible. Everything is possible.

Paramahaṁsa: Because he is so rich, he can pay the judge a few million rupees, and the judge will say, "Yes, yes, he is God." By court's rule.

Prabhupāda: Then the other party will go to appeal. Where he is being judged? In the Supreme Court or lower court?

Amogha: I'm not sure. Actually, the judgment is whether or not he put a false picture in the newspaper of his brother with a girl.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: The suit... The older brother is claiming that... First he put a picture in the paper showing the younger Guru Maharaj-ji kissing an American girl. So Guru Maharaj-ji put another counter-photo, showing his older brother with an American girl. So the suit is over whether this second picture is a real picture or is it artificially made. That's what the court will decide.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is the suit.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So in other words, the case is that God cannot kiss an American girl. [laughs] Is that the case? [laughter]

Paramahaṁsa: Well, not in public.

Śrutakīrti: The mother's claim is that the Guru Maharaj-ji is not fit to be the leader now, because he is...

Prabhupāda: Because he has kissed one American girl?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, not one, but many.

Prabhupāda: Many.

Śrutakīrti: It's his character in general has degraded.

Paramahaṁsa: That was the initiation.

Amogha: She says he has fallen down, and this is evidence.

Paramahaṁsa: God has fallen down.

Prabhupāda: That means kissing one American girl is falldown. Is that the case?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why it is falldown? Kṛṣṇa, He kissed so many gopīs. He can defend like that.

Śrutakīrti: He may do that. Guru Maharaj-ji may do that.

Prabhupāda: Do that. He is the same Kṛṣṇa. Now formerly, Kṛṣṇa used to kiss cowherd girls. And he is kissing American girls. Where is the wrong there?

Śrutakīrti: But this was in public. This was in public.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was doing public.

Amogha: But he cannot do anything like lift Govardhana Hill or have sixteen thousand wives.

Prabhupāda: That is both for them. Let them lift only one mound weight. Then they will come. But they cannot do, neither of them. That is impossible. They have not killed any demons. They are taking advantage of the foolishness of some people, that's all.

Paramahaṁsa: The only quality they have exhibited is expertness in cheating. That is their qualification. [break]

[in car]

Paramahaṁsa: Because so many of them are saying that "I am God," they become envious of one another, and then they fight and expose each other.

Prabhupāda: Competition. Gods competition.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. And then everyone can see that they are simply materialists.

Prabhupāda: Not only he, but there are many others claim to become God. All of them should be brought into the court.

Paramahaṁsa: Didn't Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura do that once?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: What was the penalty that he...?

Prabhupāda: He put into the jail for six months. And he died in the jail. He took poison. Because after coming out of the jail, he could not do his business.

Paramahaṁsa: He's finished.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct]

Gaṇeśa: Also Paundraka.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa cut his head immediately. Let this Guru Maharaj cut the heads of the opposition, that "You do not accept me God, I cut your head." Let him cut the head of his brother or mother.

Paramahaṁsa: [laughing] He may do that.

Prabhupāda: Then we can understand he is God. Why does he go to the mercy of court? And the court has detained him. What kind of God...? [pause] So can you get charcoal?

Amogha: Charcoal? Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, get it. [end]