Room Conversation with Svarūpa Dāmodara , Atlanta , 1975-03-01

Prabhupāda: Try to understand this, that life is always there, as God is there. So these living entities, part and parcel of God, they are also there. That God has got multi-energies, potencies. Out of that, three potencies have been taken as very important. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. God has multi-energy. Out of that, three energies have been taken as principal = material, spiritual and marginal. The material energy is this material world. The spiritual world is the spiritual energy. And we living entities, we are also spiritual, but we are called marginal because we may live under the subjugation of material energy or spiritual energy.

So the living entities, they are eternal. Their only position is marginal---sometimes manifested here, sometimes manifested there. So in the material world the living entities are already there. You haven't got to create. That is foolishness. It is never created. Simply in the material world it becomes manifest in four ways. Some of them are coming like trees, plants. And some of them are coming from perspiration. Not coming; being manifested through fermentation, perception. And some of them are being manifested through eggs. And some of them are being manifested through embryo. The living entities are already there. Their struggle is going on, and they become manifest in the material world in four sources. In the spiritual world there is no such... They are eternally existing. There is no question of manifestation.

So this is the science of living entities. What do they know? Therefore I say they are rascals. They do not know anything; simply trying to create. What is the creation? It is already there. But they do not know what is this, and still, they are scientists, they are advanced education. All rascal. They do not know. Therefore through Bhagavad-gītā we say they are rascal, mūḍhā. Now you tell these mūḍhas that "My dear sirs, you cannot create; neither it is created. You find out how they are coming out, what is their source, who is the brain behind all this nature. That you find out. That is knowledge. So if you struggle for this and try to find out the original source of everything, then some day you may come to this platform, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Then you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything, and then your knowledge will be perfect." This is the... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Whatever we see, that is, the source is Vasudeva.

Do you think this nice flower has come out without any brain, this nonsense philosophy? The so-called scientist will put some bombastic word, "this, that..." What is that explanation? Nobody can understand. It will be understood by them only. They will put some language in such a way that it is to be understood by them. Unless they explain, nobody will understand. They say it is automatically being done---nature. That's not the fact. Nature is an instrument. Just like this wonderful machine, computer. But still, there is operator. But they have no common sense even that where is the machine that is working without any operator? Where is that machine within their experience? How they suggest that the nature is doing automatically? Nature is wonderful machine, but the operator is Kṛṣṇa. That is real knowledge. Because the machine is working wonderfully, there is no operator? Where is that experience? Have you got any experience, Dr. Wolf, like that?

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: No, sir, I don't.

Prabhupāda: Then? Oh, we have got any experience? You have got any experience? Then why do you say nonsense, this? You have no experience, and you say something nonsense, ludicrous. They say "nature." What is the nature? Nature is a machine only. Just like the harmonium = it is also machine, but if one expert operator is there, it makes very melodious, "Oh, nice." Will the harmonium play automatically? And bring melodious sound? So they have no common sense even; still, they are scientist. That is our regret. They are less than common-sense man. That you have to expose, that these people have not even common sense, and they are passing on as scientist. That you must protest because you are servant of God, you are servant of the scientist. Call them directly rascal. Let them defend that they are not rascal. He brought some scientist. I called him, "You are rascal, you are demon, you are, [indistinct]," [laughs] but he tolerated. But means in... internally he accepted that he is a rascal. [laughs] Actually they... They have no common sense even. We are not scientist, but we speak from common sense, that's all. Yesterday or day before yesterday, I was talking on common sense on law points, so Rūpānuga said that "You are bigger than lawyer." I do not know that I am bigger than lawyer, but I was speaking on common sense.

The difficulty is they are misleading. So many people are being misled by the so-called politician and scientist and... But Gandhi says... He has written so many nonsense things. One thing is that he said, "I do not believe that there was anybody as Kṛṣṇa living ever. Kṛṣṇa is of my imagination." These things he has written. And he is Mahatma Gandhi. Mahātmā's definition is there in the Bhagavad-gītā = mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Mahātmā means devotee, who has understood vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But these rascal politicians, they have become mahātmā. For politics they can do anything, lie like anybody, and so many things. There was a big writer in Bengal. So he is giving evidence in the court... That's a comic[?]. So the, he says, "Do you think I am editor? I am pleader? I am prostitute?" Means indirectly he is saying that they are prostitutes. As the prostitute can say anything, I mean to lies, for their profession, similarly, these people, the editor and the pleaders, they are like that. "Do you think I am prostitute? Do you think I am lawyer? Do you think I am editor, newspaper editor?"

So take this formula from the śāstras that a living entity is never created. These rascals are trying to create living entity and spending money and going to hold big, big conference. So where is the question of creation? They are already created. Why this common sense do not come in their brain? Why?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they are illusioned.

Prabhupāda: Innocent?

Rūpānuga: Illusioned, illusioned.

Prabhupāda: Oh, illusioned, yes.

Rūpānuga: Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. They are so-called educated, doctors, but actually they have no knowledge. Simply they are bluffing, cheating. Where is the question of creation? So many millions and trillions of living entities are there, and they are making conference, "How to create from chemicals?" Just see this childish proposal. And wasting time and misleading person, and wasting hard-earned money of the state. And big, big foundation supplying them money. And if you ask, "Give us some money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness," "No, no, we are not interested in religion. We are interested in science, and this is the science." All fools and rascal, mūḍhā. That is our test. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a mūḍhā. Bās. We have got the test tube, this Bhagavad-gītā, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So as soon as we see here is a man, he has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, "All right, you are mūḍhā." That's all. We haven't got to test him. With test tube is already there.

So you tell these mūḍhas that "Why you are wasting so much time and money to find out how to manufacture life? Then what are these life? How they have come? That is not a problem, that without your creation of life the world will go to hell. It is already there." What do they say? Why they are trying to create life?What is their answer? What they'll get it? The things are already there. Suppose there are so many motorcars, and if I manufacture one motorcar, so is there any great credit for me? The motorcars are already there. When there was no car, motorcar, the first man who manufactured, he had some credit. Who manufactured? The Daimler or somebody else? So he had some credit = "Yes, you have done something, horseless carriage. People will get some convenience. That's all right." But when there are thousands and millions of motorcars and creating accident only, and still, if I manufacture motorcar, what is my credit? What is my credit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Zero.

Prabhupāda: Zero. And they are going to put this zero, and they are going to have some big conference. So many people will come and spend money unnecessarily.

Mādhava: They want to make a better human being by making life themselves. They want to make it better.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our proposal, that don't waste time. You are living entities. There are so many living entities. Now try to understand what is your actual constitutional position so that you may become happy and peaceful. This research should be done. Why they are going to waste time in this way, money and time? You can write to the organizer, sponsor of this meeting, that "Why you are foolishly going to waste time like that?" You can say, at least, "My Guru Mahārāja says like this."

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think if they're trying to create life, they want to claim authorship.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: They want to create authorship by creating lfe. They want to say, "We did it," but they do not understand that they will never...

Prabhupāda: What do they want to claim by creating life?

Rūpānuga: Authorship.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: Originators. They want to be...

Prabhupāda: Origin is already there. How you can be originator? Already life is there. How you can be originator? That is your foolishness.

Rūpānuga: They're simply trying to disprove Kṛṣṇa. "If I can do this," they're saying, "if I can create life, then there's no need to postulate a God. I can be God."

Prabhupāda: That means demon.

Rūpānuga: Yes, they want to be God. Their vision is...

Prabhupāda: So how we can respect the demons? We cannot.

Rūpānuga: No. We'll not give them any credit.

Prabhupāda: The other fools, they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say, "You will never be able." We can say. This rascal, we can give some knowledge, that "Your this attempt will be failure." Because we know life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na jāyate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā's assertion, na jāyate na mriyate: "Neither it is created; neither it dies." So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now let them prove that he can create. This is our position. So Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what Kṛṣṇa speaks. That's all, finished.

Rūpānuga: They're like you described yesterday, when the scorpion comes from the rice. They think that when some living entity becomes manifest that he's been created. That's because the material...

Prabhupāda: That also he cannot do.

Rūpānuga: No.

Prabhupāda: How the scorpion is coming out of rice, that they do not know. Such a foolish person, he is scientist.

Rūpānuga: They're thinking because they are able by different methods like synthetics and through chemistry that they can produce...

Prabhupāda: That is craftsmanship. That is not knowledge.

Rūpānuga: But still, they are thinking because they can do, make the background a little...

Prabhupāda: Just like if you paint a picture, rose, you are a painter, not that you know the knowledge. A painter is not a man of knowledge. Man of knowledge means he knows how things are being done. That is man of knowledge. Painter imitates some painting, that's all. He may be a good painter, but a painter is never taken as man of knowledge. I think, therefore, two departments = art and science. So these knowledge, this technical knowledge... Suppose one man has created an aeroplane. That is an art; that is not knowledge.

Rūpānuga: So if they create some synthetic, that is an art.

Prabhupāda: That is an art.

Rūpānuga: Simply copying what is there.

Prabhupāda: Just like a good cook is a good chemist. He knows how to mix up the masālās and ghee and makes very tasteful thing. So you can call him a good cook. [laughs] The chemistry is nothing but mixture of different chemicals. That's all. There is oil, there is alkaline. You mix it very proportionately, and soap comes out, very useful.

Mādhava: Prabhupāda, how can we explain to the scientists how matter, how gross matter, is being produced from subtle matter and ultimately from life, from consciousness? Like if a scientist were looking at the creation occurring, what would be...

Prabhupāda: Every scientist knows that originally the sky, the sound, and from the sound, then, what is? Air? What is the process of creation from subtle to gross?

Rūpānuga: First the ether produces sound.

Prabhupāda: Yes. From sound there is air; from air there is fire; from fire there is water; from water there is earth. This is earth, water, air, fire. And the sound, transcendental sound... As it is said in the Bible, "Let there be creation." And in the Vedas also, it is said, sa aikṣata: "He glanced over." That is to be found out, how from sound, from ether, sound is coming... I think that is already in the science. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not known, [indistinct] science.

Mādhava: You gave one example of television.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mādhava: You gave one example of television as showing that gross form comes from the ether. The transmission of television...

Prabhupāda: But that now, this television, yes, coming. Sound is coming, some ethereal vibration and so many things. That you have to see. But in the Vedic knowledge is already there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The question that Mādhava was raising that came up in the questions, that all the forms of our these living entities which... All the species, their forms, their gross forms...

Prabhupāda: That is coming from mind.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, whether that has come all of a sudden.

Prabhupāda: No all of a sudden.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Or is it by gradual evolution from...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. As you are thinking always, so you are creating your next body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That still is not the answer. What we want is, at the time of creation of the material world, when all the species, 8,400,000 species...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...they are all simultaneously manifested, just at once?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They have not manifested yes. Because it was like sleeping. When there is no creation and..., there is sleeping stage. Just like in the sleeping stage, even at the present moment, at night, the dog is sleeping, the bird is sleeping, the man is sleeping, the tiger is... Everyone is sleeping at night. But in the morning, as soon as they awake, they understand, "I am tiger," "I am dog," "I am man," "I am this," "I am that." That's all. Everyone remembers that "I have to do this. I have to do that. I have to go there. I have to bring money from there." All duties come immediately. So all these living creatures who are sleeping at night, but when there is morning, they again become the same. That is creation.

Rūpānuga: But when Brahmā creates, does he first of all create the aquatics, then the plants?

Prabhupāda: No.

Rūpānuga: No, everything is at once. There's no gradual, it is all immediate.

Prabhupāda: There is a process, from aquatics to this, this, this, this, but when there is creation, all of them come at once.

Rūpānuga: So that process is transmigration of the soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Rūpānuga: That is evolution.

Prabhupāda: So in the last creation, if somebody could not come to the human form of body, now again he will be able to come. Therefore the creation is there. Another chance is given.

Rūpānuga: Yes. Otherwise there would be no chance.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is the idea that matter comes from life.

Prabhupāda: Life, yes.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: I do not quite see how. I do not quite understand how matter can come from life.

Prabhupāda: Just like a man, a mechanic, was sleeping, and as soon as he awakes, he again begins to manufacture motorcar. In the sleeping stage he was doing nothing. But awakened state, he begins his work. So therefore he is living being, and the motorcar comes from him, not that the motorcar was sleeping. He was sleeping, the living entity.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: Can one assume that matter is a kind of energy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is also energy of God.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: But which of the three types of energy does matter come from?

Prabhupāda: Matter, material.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: The material energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the material world there is question of matter and spirit. In the spiritual world simply everything is spiritual.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: Can we assume that energy itself, all three types of energy, are related to life?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: They emanate from life.

Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Find out this verse. Ahaṁ sarvasya. Sarvasya means both matter and spirit. [gets up and begins to leave room]

Rūpānuga: We had some... Can we get you something, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want something?

Prabhupāda: No, I am going for...

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitaḥ

[leaves room]

Rūpānuga: Now we have some questions we have to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because we're writing a book, we have some questions, some specific questions. We have to have time to get these questions in. Did you write them down, Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? [some background discussion amongst men in room about questions to ask, and praying for guidance and intelligence] [break]

Satsvarūpa: "The wise, who know this, perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prabhupāda: That's it. He has found out the original source. [chuckles] There is no conference needed.

Rūpānuga: This other question = During the day of Brahmā at the end of every Manu there's a partial devastation of the planets up to earth and celestial, right? Now, at that time there's like a flood, and the animals that are in their particular stage of transmigration of the living entities, their bodies are all killed. Now, at that time, when the end of that period is over, how are the bodies manifest? This is a question Richard Prabhu was asking.

Prabhupāda: There is no body. They are reserved in the Viṣṇu's body. And again, when there is creation, they come out. And therefore matter comes from the spirit. Matter is there---creation, matter. So take advantage of the matter. Just like the cloth is there. You cut it according your body, and there is a coat. The spiritual body is already there. Now the matter is there. Now, from matter, you take. You make your body like a dog, like a ant, like a fish, like a tree, like this.

Rūpānuga: So everything is... All the different species are created again, simultaneously.

Prabhupāda: That is... He died with that mentality. It is there. Just like we go to sleep, but all your mental activities are reserved. In the morning again you begin.

Mādhava: Prabhupāda, you say that the living entity, he is thinking about a particular kind of body and a particular activity...

Prabhupāda: Not particular body---particular desire. And according to the desire, Kṛṣṇa is giving him facility through the material machine to give him a particular type of body. Just like one man is thinking of eating anything nonsense. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You give him this body of hog. He can eat even stool." That's all. You want to be naked, nudie? So Kṛṣṇa gives him, "So he is very much anxious to become nudie. Make him a tree. Stand up for five thousand years naked." This is going on.

Mādhava: If I desire...

Prabhupāda: Whatever you desire.

Mādhava: If I desire something to appear here now... If I desire something to come here...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you will remain here as insect.

Mādhava: If I desire a plate of prasādam to appear here...

Prabhupāda: Then you will go to Vaikuṇṭha. [laughter]

Mādhava: How do I do it by just desiring? How is it done?

Prabhupāda: By desire you are creating everything. Why these material varieties? You desire. In the spiritual world also, varieties. Desire, you want to serve Kṛṣṇa as His friend, you want to serve Kṛṣṇa as His lover, you want to serve Kṛṣṇa as His father, as His servant, or you want to serve Kṛṣṇa by supplying fruits and flowers, or river Yamunā. Everything, whatever you like, Kṛṣṇa will give you opportunity, in this material world---in the spiritual world.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: After complete annihilation and then, when the creation starts again...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of annihilation.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I mean the material universe.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is manifest, not manifest. Not annihilation. The energy is there. Just like I, sometimes I become angry, and sometime I am peaceful. But that means anger is annihilated. Anger is there. It may be manifest at any time. There is no question of annihilation. You say like that because actually it is vyakta, avyakta: manifest and nonmanifest.

Rūpānuga: We don't see it, so we say it's not manifest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So during this time there are still living entities which are not manifested.

Prabhupāda: Many men? are already there, but his desires are manifest or nonmanifest.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the living entities are there, but they stop manifesting the different bodies.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you cannot see him without body. That is your defect. There are so many living entities in the air. You cannot see them. That is your defect. Therefore, Vedānta---śāstra-cakśuṣā: "You should see through the śāstra, not with your so-called eyes."

Rūpānuga: Śarīram puruṣo veda.

Prabhupāda: Yeah. Knowledge is through śāstra, authority, not by our senses. That is not knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that explains the... Sometimes some scientists ask that "You are very sure about 8,400,000 species."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They ask, "How are you so much sure about 8,400,000 species?"

Prabhupāda: Because we have heard from authority. As you are asking assurance from me, so I give it the knowledge from where I have heard. You want to hear from me; I have heard from authority. That's all. Where is the difficulty? Why you are asking me? You want to hear from me. So I have also heard from authority. This is the statement. You take it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when... They say that there are some plants that can grow from just branches. We stick the branch in the soil, then it just grows to another plant.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. The living entity is there, but he is manifested in such a way. The same explanation. Just like there are many living entities within my body, and when this body is stopped, decomposed, they come out in different forms.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Are these living entities constant?

Prabhupāda: Yes, nitya.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are constant. They don't change in any way.

Prabhupāda: Nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Why don't you see these references? It is never created. It is ever-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who knows, he knows that he has changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows, when a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child. Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now he has become robust build, he cannot say. And the mother says, "He is my child, that child." So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ.

Satsvarūpa: [reading] "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

Prabhupāda: That's all. So where is the question of creation? But because we have got these material eyes, we want to see everything through this material manifestation. We are seeing that he is dead, he is alive, he is born, he is this, that...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the defect of the scientists. They only see the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their defect. Therefore, therefore asses, go-kharaḥ. That is defined. Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharaḥ, animal. And that is our protest, that "You are animal; you are passing as very learned scholar, scientist." That we want to protest. We want to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and... That is our protest.

Mādhava: We can, can we say that the living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules and the atoms come together to form a body, just like the scientists give explanation? No? We can't?

Prabhupāda: No. Because the living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That's all. That is depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops. The machine is there, the everything is there, but this rascal mechanic, he comes, "Something is missing." And why something missing? But he does not know the missing part is the driver. He is finding out in the motorcar what is missing. The motor, everything is there. The hand is there, leg is there, heart is there, the intestines are there, everything is there. So they cannot explain. They say, "Now the blood has become white." Then make it red. Where is the difficulty? So they do not know what is missing; neither he'll take, I mean to say, learned instruction. That is their defect. Real thing is the driver is missing, but that they will not accept. They are so foolish, they are thinking that motorcar is running automatically.

Rūpānuga: Like a child.

Prabhupāda: Like a child, yes. As the child will say, "Oh, motorcar is going on."

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would it be possible for them to make a body and have a living entity enter into it? Could they make a body and the living entity enter into it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is yogic principle. They can enter into a young body and act as young man.

Sadāpūta: So a scientist then could claim he created life. He could... The way they talk, if he made a cell...

Prabhupāda: First of all let them, these foolish rascals, let them understand what is the point who is missing. Then they will replace. They have no knowledge what is missing. They are so fool.

Dr. Wolf-Rottkay: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they would not create. They would only imitate.

Prabhupāda: That is not... It is never created. That is their missing point, that life is never created and they are trying to create.

Mādhava: Is their theory maybe right? May their theory be right? Like they say they come from amino acids and so many things. But...

Prabhupāda: That may be or may not be. Who cares for them? It is being already done.

Rūpānuga: They're simply describing it. They maybe describing it.

Prabhupāda: That is also... Because they have no knowledge, how they can describe?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're explaining that, just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example that the driver in the car. So inside the... We also say that "Yes, molecules are the ingredients to build the material bodies. But this does not mean that molecules are the living entities."

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a driver necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra... [Bg. 2.13]. Dehinaḥ. There is a living entity, driver, within this body. That is the first instruction. Unless one understands this simple thing, he is an ass. There is no knowledge, because everything is based on something fictitious. This is the first thing one has to learn, the scientists, that there is the driver which is missing. Or the driver is moving this body. And if the driver is educated, that he can move this body to Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead. Then he becomes perfect. So we are educating the driver. We are not painting the tin car. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Mādhava: Does the scientist actually observe something external to his mind, or does he only observe...

Prabhupāda: Speculation.

Mādhava: Only in his mind.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Just like you cannot see actually what is beyond the wall, and there is some sound, you can simply speculate, "This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this." But you have no clear knowledge. This is called speculation. But if a man behind the wall says, "This sound is..." [break] [end]