Room Conversation with Svarūpa Dāmodara , Atlanta , 1975-02-28
Prabhupāda: ...Is it not fact? If sexual intercourse is the beginning of life, then why it is not always successful? We say that when the life, living entity, is there in the semina and it is put into the woman's womb, then body develops. Therefore, the beginning is the life. This is practical. And this life is the part and parcel of the supreme life. Therefore the beginning is God. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So we have to establish this theory in this misguided world that... And besides that, why they cannot produce life from matter? What is the value of their statement? That they have not been able to do. Where is the proof that from matter life comes? You do it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Proof is under investigation. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Eh? That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This proof, that from life, life is coming, there is proof, so many proof. A man, animal, trees---everything is coming from life. Up till now, nobody has seen that a man is born from a stone. Nobody has seen. Sometimes the... it is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. You know that? Vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Vṛścika means scorpion, and taṇdūla means rice. Sometimes we see some heaps of rice, the scorpion is coming. But that is not that the rice has given birth to the scorpion. You have not seen in your country? We have seen it. From the rice, heaps of rice, one scorpion, small scorpion, is coming. The fact is that the parent of the scorpion, they put their eggs within the rice and, being fermented, the scorpion come, not that from rice the scorpion is coming. Therefore it is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Vṛścika means scorpion, and taṇdūla means rice. So, matter is... "Life is coming from matter"---this is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Life cannot come from matter. Besides that... Just like when there is life, living entity, the body grows, body changes or grows, as you say. But if the child is dead or come out dead, then the body does not grow. Then matter is growing on life. Why, a dead child born, it does not grow? What is the reason? Hmm? What is your scientists' reason?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that somehow the chemical reactions are not going right in the body, in the dead body.
Prabhupāda: But you give the chemical. You rascal, you have got so many chemicals. Why don't you give it? What is the use of saying like that? Now the child is dead. Now you give some chemical injection and bring it into life. Why you cannot do that? If you cannot do that, then what is the nonsense, saying that some chemical is missing? If it is missing, you will replace it. Hmm... Why you cannot replace?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they haven't found out the chemical.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. You do not know what is that chemical, and still you say that some chemical is missing. This is going on---bluffing, cheating. This should be stopped. You do not know what is that chemical missing; still, you say, "Some chemical missing." Why do you say like that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently there were some journals that came out. The title is called "The Origin of Life." I will bring in the school when we discuss things. It started about from last year. And they have got an international association of scientists, and they discuss about the origin of life. And then... I wrote a letter to the editor of that journal, and they replied me that they're going to have another meeting, international meeting, in Japan in 1977. And there will be several meetings in Europe in the coming years. So their aim and object is to prove that life started from chemicals. It is a big group, all international scientists. So he asked me to become a member of the research group.
Prabhupāda: So you become member and protest, "No," and prove. You just become the opposite.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also asked whether they...
Prabhupāda: Don't say, "Yes, it is all right." No, don't say. That will be your duty.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Right now we are planning to write that book all together, all the Godbrothers, so that for the God we have some background, and what we have learned from Prabhupāda, and then after that we can start.
Prabhupāda: This kind of answer, that if I ask you that "You produce life from chemicals," and if you answer that "Yes, we shall do it in future," that is not very scientific answer. What do you think? Is that very scientific answer?
Satsvarūpa: No. But that's what they think is scientific.
Prabhupāda: How it is scientific? Life is already there. Not that the life production is depending on your future scientific research. The life is already going there, hundreds and thousands and millions. You say that you do not know. Why you are claiming that "In future we shall know"? There is no need of your knowing; it is already going on. You do not know. That is your position. And still, you are declaring yourself as scientist. You are misleading. You can make a fool's paradise, that is another thing. But you do not know at the present moment, but the things are going on. Life is being produced without your knowledge. So you admit that you have no knowledge. And without having knowledge, you are declaring yourself as scientist---how much cheating it is. It is not that it is depending on your future knowledge. It is already going on. Life is being produced. So if you think that in future, by chemical combination you will produce life, so that chemical composition is already there, going on. So you have to find out who is that scientist, not that chemical composition. Who is that scientist who is producing so many lives and chemicals? That is real intelligence.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why we title our book as The Origin of Life in Matter. We do not talk simply "life" because...
Prabhupāda: Origin of everything.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Matter, crude matter, origin of the chemicals, the..., this carbon, hydrogen, these elements, these also, there is a brain behind it who made these chemicals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to find out who is that brain, who is that scientist. That is real research. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is brahma-jijñāsā. Jijñāsā means enquiry, that "Who is that brain?" Because things are already going on. It is not depending on your so-called research. It is already going on nicely. So your business should be = "Who is that brain behind it?" That should be your research, not that how chemical combination can be... It is already being produced without your so-called scientific knowledge. It is already going on. So as you are taxing your brain that "How this chemical combination produces life," so that brain is already there. Otherwise how life is coming? What do you think? So why you are trying to find out the chemicals? You find out the brain. As you are taxing your brain to find out the chemicals, the original brain has already done it. Now you find out who is that person who has got such a nice brain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the real research.
Prabhupāda: That is real research. You point out this, not that your chemical combination. It is already done. And people are already taking advantage like that. If there is some discovery by some scientist, he praises the man who has discovered this.
Rūpānuga: He names the man..., experiment for the man.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The man is important, who has done it. The person is important. So am I right or wrong? So find out the person, who is that person.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Suppose they say that it just came about by chance.
Prabhupāda: That is kick on your face with boots. Immediately = hmmh! [laughter] That's all. That is the answer, only answer. Rascaldom answer, "chance." The only answer is to kick his face with the boot, that's all, as soon as he says chance.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Richard Prabhu is going to write a topic, a chapter, that mathematical proof of the idea that chance comes into play, that...
Prabhupāda: Your mathematics is also imperfect because you are imperfect. You are imperfect. There is nothing chance. There must be cause. You do not know the cause. You cannot find out. You are taking a loophole, "chance." Then why you are making so many scientific research things? Chance, let it happen, everything, by chance. Then what is the use of your scientific research? Let everything happen by chance. There is no chance.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another answer that we come across when we talk with these people...
Prabhupāda: There is nowadays the chance theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, chance is not so much popular, but the answer that "Chemicals were supplied by nature," that's a very...
Prabhupāda: No, what is nature? That you cannot explain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the answer, theirs. When we ask the scientists...
Prabhupāda: But what is this nature?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the nature is not understood.
Prabhupāda: Just see. That means you are rascal. You have not understood. You have no knowledge. As soon as you cannot explain, you prove your foolishness, that's all. That is not scientific answer, "chance," "nature." What is the nature? Who is conducting nature? How the nature is going on so nicely?
Rūpānuga: You said before they were acting as teachers, but actually they are still students.
Prabhupāda: No, they are cheater. They are cheater, not teacher. Cheater. They have no full knowledge; still, they have become teacher. You cannot become teacher unless you have got full knowledge. That is cheater.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, suppose that they acknowledge the fact that they do not know, but they challenge, "How do you know what you believe is right?"
Prabhupāda: Because I have approached the Supreme, the supreme brain, Kṛṣṇa. He is the perfect person in knowledge. Aiśvaryasya. Jñāna. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. He knows everything. He's conducting nature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakra [Bs. 5.52]. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So we know from the perfect. Therefore my knowledge is perfect. I am not perfect; that's a fact. But my knowledge is perfect. Just like I am not an electrician, but the electrician has told me that "You push this button. There will be light," so I am doing that. What is the use of becoming electrician? I want light, and the electrician told me, "Just put this button." I am doing that, and light is there. That's all. You cannot say, "You are not a electrician. How you can say the light...?" I know from the perfect person, and it is acting. This is our position. It doesn't require that I will have to become electrician. The electrician has told that "You put this button," and there will be light. That's all. Does it require that I will have to become a electrician to conduct this light?
Rūpānuga: No, it simply requires that one listen and take instruction.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Therefore śruti, Veda. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhi... [MU 1.2.12]. Hear from the guru and do it, that's all. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya. Now, what is that song? Who knows this song, śrī-guru-caraṇa-padma?
Nitāi: Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, ār nā koriho mane āśā.
Prabhupāda: Koriho mane āśā. Do not try to research anything. That is final. Ar na koriho mane āśā. If the guru is perfect, your knowledge is perfect. And how guru becomes perfect? He has heard from his guru. That's all. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāhu [Bg. 4.1]. This is paramparā system. You hear... Lord Brahmā heard from Kṛṣṇa, tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye [SB 1.1.1]. He gave the knowledge to Brahmā. Brahmā distributed the knowledge. Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. The Vedic knowledge comes from the Supreme Person. Vedāham. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛt cāham [Bg. 15.15]. So Vedic knowledge coming from Kṛṣṇa, and it is received by Brahmā, and then Nārada receives. Then Vyāsadeva receives. Then he gives us all these Vedic literature. We understand. That's all. It is not by so-called rascal's research. Research means they are rascal. That's all.
Rūpānuga: Kṛṣṇa says, "Take it from Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And if he wants to make research, that means he is a rascal number one. If you want to make research, then search out what is the original brain, not the process. Process is already going on. What is the use of your research, nonsense? Suppose by chemical combination, if you produce one life... You will never be able. But still, if you think that you will be able or you become able, then what is credit to you? Without your help there millions and millions of life are being manufactured, without your help. Then what is your credit?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imitating a barking dog.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That some millions of dogs are barking, and one man has learned how to bark like dog, and people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. This is their foolishness. Suppose if you somehow or other become able to produce life from chemical, then what is your credit? It is like barking dog. Millions of dog are barking. Now you have learned how to bark like dog. So what is your credit? It may be for the rascal fools that you are scientist, but we are not so rascal.
Rūpānuga: They will clap. [claps hands] The fools will clap.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. "How nice barking. Oh, how he has learned to bark." Just see. We are not so fools. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍo catura: "The first-class intelligent man is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious." Sei baḍo catura. All rascals. Kṛṣṇa said, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Oh, so what is scientist? Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: "They have no knowledge, all rascals." Kṛṣṇa says. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That he is not thinking, that "Suppose I can produce life by chemical combination, then what is my credit? The life is already there. It is going on very nicely." What do you think, Balavanta? If the things are going on nicely, then where is my credit? Either you say "by chance," or "by God's arrangement," "by nature," but things are going on nicely. So it is same thing, to learn how to bark, that's all. Barking is going on, but he wants to take credit by learning how to bark. That's all.
Mādhava: They try to imitate God.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That he cannot, and that is his foolishness. Therefore we say that you are cheating. Things are already there, going on. What is your credit?
Rūpānuga: The scientists are trying to be the hero. Kṛṣṇa is the hero. He has done everything first, and the scientist wants to be the hero.
Prabhupāda: So you have to present like this, that "What is the credit? Suppose by chemical composition you can manufacture one ant. That is not possible. Be assured, you will never be able. That we are assured. But even if you are able, then what is your credit?" The credit is the man has learned how to bark like a dog, that's all. This much credit.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they are able to make life, then they are going to say that there's no God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If their going to be able to make life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but first of all you produce, then say. Why you are anticipating that you will be able to...?
Rūpānuga: Still, who is the bigger God? If I make one ant, and there's already many, many ants made by a bigger God than me...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, so He is God. Whoever has made the most, He should be God.
Rūpānuga: So we must recognize Kṛṣṇa as the big scientist.
Prabhupāda: That is... This foolishness is going on throughout the whole world, and scientist and people are after the so-called scientist, Darwin. So we want to stop this misleading. That is our duty.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, the way they study the origin of life is nothing but the origin of molecules. It's not actually of life, the way they are studying. So there is a misunderstanding what is life and what is matter.
Prabhupāda: No, no, whatever they are studying, this rascal cannot make life even those with combination of those original molecules. Where is that proof? Our challenge is that because they cannot do it, therefore they are rascals. And that vṛścika taṇdūla nyāya, that a scorpion is coming out of rice, that's it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their claim depends on the...
Prabhupāda: There are life manifestation, according to Vedic literature, that some of the life, they are coming from eggs, some of the life, they are coming from perspiration, some of the lives come from a seed, and some of the life comes from embryo. This is all stated there. Sveda-ja, udbi-ja, aṇḍa-ja, jarayu-ja. They are already there. Jarayu means embryo, and sveda means perspiration. Life is everywhere. When they take little advantage, they come out, manifest. You will find even on the pavement, footpath, as soon as there is crack, some grass is coming. So life is everywhere, it is struggling, and as soon as there is favorable circumstances, they come in a form. That's all. Life is not created. Na jāyate. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate: "Life is never created." It is existing eternally. Therefore it is said, na jāyate. So unfortunate rascals, they do not take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā, and making research. So we want to stop this rascaldom. They are trying to create life, and it is stated in the Bhagavad..., na jāyate: "It is never created." It is already there. Simply it is coming out, being manifest by different bodies, 8,400,000's forms. That I was explaining last night = according to his desire. The life is already there, and according to his desire, he is coming out in different forms. That is going on. This is a false theory, that chemical can create life. It is nonsense. Life is never created. Life is already there. God is already there, and the part and particles, molecules, of life, was already there. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit [Bg. 2.20]. This word is used, kadācit, "at any time." We have got perfect knowledge. Why should we say, "Yes," with these rascals? We have got perfect knowledge.
Rūpānuga: They say matter can never be created or destroyed, but they do not know that life cannot be created or destroyed.
Prabhupāda: Nothing cannot be created. Life also cannot be created. They are already there. But matter is manifest, not by [indistinct]. Just like this body is manifest because the life is there. Now, this body will be destroyed, but I will exist. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. I will accept another body, and it will grow. Therefore the matter grows on the basis of life, not that from matter, life comes. This is all rascaldom. So now, by the grace of... We have got scientists. Let them protest. Save the people from this ignorance. Mūḍhā. That is our mission. Give them chance. They have got human body. Let them become Kṛṣṇa conscious and give up all this nonsense thing. Hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti. This is mukti. They are mad after something wrong. So they should be saved, and they should give up this so-called materialism and come to service to the Kṛṣṇa, his eternal job. Then that is mukti. Then he is liberated.
Rūpānuga: So this book, actually, is directed to scientifically-minded people, because in this age people are getting educated. They are getting scientific-minded.
Prabhupāda: But they are creating problem. The psychiatrists came to see me, where? Cascaras? Caracas. So I said---he admitted, both the psychiatrists---that "You are not treating the real person who is diseased." I gave him the example that "You have got good car, but the driver is a madman, and he is creating disaster, and you psychiatrists are going to cure it. You never say that 'The driver is bad. Change him or just educate him. Then there will be no disaster.' But you are taking your fees and giving some repairing in the car. But you do not know what is the original cause of disaster. It is not chance. Due to the bad driver." So our propaganda is to give the bad driver nice knowledge so that he can drive the car to Vaikuṇṭha. That is our position. And these rascals, the materialists, they are simply painting the body of the car. And the driver? "Let him starve."
Rūpānuga: They are like the cheating mechanics.
Prabhupāda: That's all. All these medical men, psychiatrists, they are simply painting the body of the car. That's all. What is that?
Bir Lakṣmaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists, they've reported in one journal of theirs that by taking some chemicals of methane, ammonia and carbon and injecting it with electricity, that equation or that formula equates into... an energy that is called amino acid in due course of time. That is, they say, the building blocks of life, of protein.
Prabhupāda: So why do they not do that?
Bir Lakṣmaṇa: They've made an experiment...
Prabhupāda: That means they are not in knowledge. That I am speaking, the barking dog. First of all make experiment, produce life. Then come and say. Otherwise, don't bark like a dog, imitation. Simply big, big words. Produce. Our theory is that... In the śāstra it is said, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nās... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. That practical proof we are giving, that these Europeans, Americans, they are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and how they are coming out. This practical proof. They did not know five year, six years ago what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa's name. But we are taking the conclusion of the śāstra: in this age, if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes spiritualized. That is becoming, practically. It is not theory. How so many devotees are in this Atlanta, here? Anywhere, wherever we have started, how they have become devotee? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You follow this formula and you will become God conscious." That is being practically proved. It is not theory. So that is Vedic knowledge. You adopt Vedic knowledge and get the result, not that "This ammonia, this chemical, that chemical, but I cannot do anything." The rascal said, "That I cannot say." You...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He asked him, that rascal chemist, that "If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?" That time he said, "No, that I cannot say." Why do you say like that? In the beginning, in New York, that storefront, the Satsvarūpa is with..., and Hayagrīva and... And "You chant simply." You were also there. So this chanting is proving efficient. That is Vedic knowledge. It is not theory. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not theory or mental speculation. It is a fact. So therefore it is said, guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, ār nā koriho mane āśā.
So whatever little success I have got, it is only for this reason. My Guru Mahārāja said that "You go and preach whatever you learned in English language." That's all. So I came here with this faith, that "My Guru Mahārāja said. I must be successful." I did not show any jugglery to you, gold-making jugglery. Where is my gold? I came with forty rupees first. [chuckles] So these are Vedic instruction, guru-mukha-padma-vākya, and śrī-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama-gati. That is real progress. So this is Vedic instruction. We have to follow the Vedic injunction. Then you will be successful. Not these rascals' theory. It is useless.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The standard of knowledge has to be there, but they do not know that there is a standard. The scientists, these researchers working in different fields, not only scientists, any field of knowledge, there must be a standard. So the...
Prabhupāda: The standard is given by... That is standard, as that Vedic language, Vedic instruction. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave the standard, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21] = "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Immediately successful. That is standard. Otherwise, how you will find standard? Therefore it is said, guru-mukha-pad... That is standard. What you [indistinct] from a bona fide guru, that is standard. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Anyone who will do this standard, he will become devotee. And as soon as he become devotee, he is fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Yes, this is standard. What Kṛṣṇa says? Find out this verse = man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is standard. All nonsense. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Don't accept anything. This is standard. What is that?
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiśyasi satyaṁ te
pratijāne priyo 'si me
"Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer..." [break] [end]