Bhagavad-gītā 4.13 , Vṛndāvana , 1974-08-05

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...translation... [break] ...Bhagavad-gītā... [break]

Dayānanda: ...Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Dayānanda: What is that... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...where is, I don't exactly... We have heard from authorities. There is no question of inquiring. What is the... Even if you don't quote, you can assert firmly that everyone is a śūdra. How? Now, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Bhagavad-gītā says this classification is made, guṇa-karma. So what is the karma at the present moment? They're seeking service. The so-called education means seeking service, master. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. This is śāstra. Anyone who is attached to give service to others or, without giving service to others, he cannot live, that is he's śūdra. He has no independent existence. Just like I was showing, the dog. Unemployed. Lean and thin and... Because he has no master. The same dog, when he has got a master, he'll be stout and strong, and he'll, as soon as you..., "Owf! Owf! Bow! [laughter] I have got my master." So this is śūdra. Śūdra is compared with the dog. A dog is never happy without a master. Then it is a street dog. That is the difference between household dog and a street dog. So in this age, practically you see, unless there is employment, he's a street dog. That is the proof that everyone is a śūdra. That is the proof.

Brahmānanda: Brāhmaṇa is not to accept any employment.

Prabhupāda: No. He'll die of starvation, he'll not accept any employment. That is brāhmaṇa. Kṣatriya also that, and vaiśya also. Only śūdra. A vaiśya will find out some business. He'll find out some business. So there is a practical story. One Mr. Nandi, long, long ago, in the Calcutta, he went to some friend, that "If you can give me a little capital, I can start some business." So he said, "You are vaiśya? Mercantile?" "Yes." "Oh, you are asking money from me? Money's on the street. You can find out." So he said, "I don't find." "You don't find? What is that?" "That, that is a dead mouse." "That is your capital." Just see.

So in those days, plague in Calcutta, plague was going on. So Municipal declaration was any dead mouse brought to the Municipal office, he'll be paid two annas. So he took that dead body of the mouse and took to the Municipal office; he was paid two annas. So he purchased some rotten betel nuts with two annas, and washed it and sold it at four annas or five annas. In this way, again, again, again, that man became so rich man. One of their family member was our Godbrother. Nandi family. That Nandi family still, they have got four hundred, five hundred men to eat daily. A big, aristocratic family. And their family's regulation is as soon as one son or daughter is born, five thousand rupees deposited in the bank, and at the time of his marriage, that five thousand rupees with interest, he can take it. Otherwise there is no more share in the capital. And everyone who lives in the family, he gets eating and shelter. This is their... But the original, I mean to say, establisher of this family, Nandi, he started his business with a red..., a dead rat, or mouse.

That is actually fact, actually fact, that if one wants to live independently... In Calcutta I have seen, even poor class vaiśyas, and in the morning they'll take some ḍāl, bag of ḍāl, and go door to door. Ḍāl is required everywhere. So in morning he makes ḍāl business, and in evening he takes one canister of kerosene oil. So in the evening everyone will require. Still you'll find in India, they... Nobody was seeking for employment. A little, whatever he has got, selling some ground nuts or that peanuts. Something he's doing. After all, Kṛṣṇa is giving maintenance to everyone. It is a mistake to think that "This man is giving me maintenance." No. Śāstra says, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. It is confidence in Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa has given me life, Kṛṣṇa has sent me here. So He'll give me my maintenance. So according to my capacity, let me do something, and through that source, Kṛṣṇa's maintenance will come." Just like we are maintaining so many people in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So what business we are doing? But we are confident that Kṛṣṇa will send us our maintenance. That confidence required. A śūdra means he becomes disturbed. He becomes disturbed = "Oh, I have no employment. How shall I eat? Where shall I go? Where shall I live?" He has no faith in Kṛṣṇa. The brāhmaṇa has got full faith, the kṣatriya has got little less faith, the vaiśya, little less faith, and the śūdra has no faith. This is the difference.

So your question was that how we can know a śūdra. That because everyone is now faithless, and everyone is seeking after employment. Therefore---we may discuss in so many ways---because people have become śūdra, therefore the capitalists are exploiting them. If everyone denies to be..., serve, then these so-called industries will fail. Immediately. That is Gandhi's proposal. "Non-cooperate with the British government, and it will wind up." And actually so happened. Because people are now śūdras, they depend for their bread to others, the others exploit them = "Come here. You work and I shall give you bread." They do not believe anymore, "O God, give us our daily bread." They think that "This our master give us daily bread." That is śūdra. Śūdra means one who is dependent on others. Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. This is the description, definition of śūdra. And vaiśya = kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. The vaiśya is doing the kṛṣi, agriculture. Why he should depend on...? Take some land from the government. You produce your food. Where is the difficulty? Keep some cows; you get milk. Vaiśya-karma svabhāva... Go-rakṣya. If you have got excess, then make trade. Why you should depend on others?

But they do not know. They want that "I shall go at ten o'clock in the office, and I shall do nothing. Simply I shall take the pen and make like this and take my salary." That's all. Cheating. This is going on. Therefore the whole system is polluted. Nobody's doing his duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma... [Bg. 4.13]. According to one's quality, one must work. But nobody wants to work. So therefore they are śūdras. They are working, but at the care of somebody else, not independently. Now the school, college, the teacher is also depending on salary. So they are śūdras. So what teaching they will give? Teaching is the business of the brāhmaṇa. No salary. Formerly, all the brāhmaṇas, they used to have that... It is called ṭola, catuṣpāṭhī. Catuṣpāṭhī [A school where up to the four Vedas are taught]. Brāhmaṇa, he'll sit down anywhere and invite that "If you like, you can come and take some teachings from me."

Brahmānanda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu did that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So still in villages you'll find the brāhmaṇa is sitting somewhere, and the small children are coming, and they're bringing some presentation. Somebody's bringing rice, somebody... And brāhmaṇa was satisfied, satisfied = "Whatever Kṛṣṇa sends, that's all right." This is brahminical qualification. He doesn't want more. There was a brāhmaṇa teacher in Krishnanagara. So the zamindar of Kṛṣṇa..., Rāja-kṛṣṇa-candra, he went that "Brāhmaṇa, what can I help you?" "No, I don't want your help." "No, you are... Your house is not very good, and your..." "No, I am quite satisfied." "How you are pulling on?" "No, I have got my student. They bring some rice. And here is a tamarind tree. My wife collects some leaves, boils it, and that becomes nice soup. And these boys bring some rice. I am quite satisfied."

[break] "...as your production is there, give me twenty-five percent. I'll give you protection." That is kṣatriya business. Brāhmaṇa's business = teaching. And vaiśya: till the field, agriculture, get your food. Now, where is dependence? Only a śūdra, he cannot take up all these things. "Give me some service, sir. Give me some service." In the modern education, they... The more and more industries increasing, there śūdras are being trained up, technology. Technology means he must get some service; otherwise, useless. Simple life, teaching, brāhmaṇa; and kṣatriya, give protection; and vaiśya, till the ground. This is... Where is the question of scarcity? The scarcity is that nobody's doing his real duty. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. And people are exploiting. There is competition, dissatisfaction, fight. So many things, sinful activities. The whole society is polluted. Actually, the whole human society is now conducted by the śūdras. But śūdras cannot run on government. That is not possible. Because that śūdra, your Nixon is a śūdra, he is exalted post, therefore everything is not in order.

Brahmānanda: Kṣatriyas should run the government?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Brahmānanda: And the brāhmaṇas should give advice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Vedic system. The brāhmaṇas would never take part in administration. They would give advice according to śāstra.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have a comment on that research.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You said that research is all right, but there has to be a standard.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There has to be a standard.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It has to be standardized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Research.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the business of the research scholar, how to make it standardized. Everything is standardized. Just like you have found the molecules, protons, and... They are working in a standardized way. They are not working whimsically there. There is standard process.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And what is that standard? What is that standard of research?

Prabhupāda: The standard is already there. Is not that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but...

Prabhupāda: Standard is already there. Kṛṣṇa has already made the standard. Our intelligence is to know how the standard has come.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we say that brahma-jijñāsā is a standard. Is that, is that...? Is that okay?

Prabhupāda: Brahma-jijñāsā means... Anything you take, it is working in a standard way. Just like the sun is rising. So the brahma-jijñāsā means how the sun is rising exactly in time. Who has made this rule? And in astronomy there is very fine calculation, one ten-thousandth part of a minute, or something like that? I have heard from you scientists. They, they make calculation of the movement of the sun like that. In astrology also, the moment is calculated like that. If the exact moment is there, by mathematical calculation, he can give you the exact history of your whole life. This is standard, all standard. Niyamitaḥ. Yasyājñayā bhramati kāla-cakraḥ. There is, Brahma-saṁhitā says:

yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ
rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ
yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.52]

How exactly the sun and the moon and the planet, they are rotating? How? Yasyājñayā. By whose order? That Govinda, ādi-puruṣa, "I offer my respectful..." Everywhere you'll find the research.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So then the difference between the transcendentalists and the scientists is that they do not know the standard of research.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we say they are fools. Why do we say mūḍhāḥ? Because they do not know. And our business is easy. We take Vedic version, Kṛṣṇa's version, Brahmā's version, Vyāsadeva's version, and accept. That's all. Which one is easiest? Our business is very simple. You ask your father... A child asks his father, "Father, what is this?" The father says, "This is microphone, my dear child." And he will, "Mother, this is microphone." So when he says this "Mother, this is microphone," is he correct or not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he is.

Prabhupāda: He's correct. He may be child, but because he has accepted the words of his father, the statement is correct. So our process is that. Take the version of the authority, Kṛṣṇa, and you repeat it---your version is perfect. This is our policy. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "You rascal scholar, philosopher, scientist, don't manufacture anything. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. That's all. You become master." Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You become master. You can teach others, a spiritual master. That's all. And if, whatever little success I have got---only for this reason. I have never said anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa. I never said, "In my opinion." I never said. You are so many students. I never said that to you. What is my opinion? One should know, "What is the value of my opinion? I am imperfect being." This is called tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā [Cc. Ādi 17.31, Śikṣāṣṭaka 3]. If one thinks, "Oh, I am big scholar. I am this. I am that," you are rascal. You have to simply carry the message of Kṛṣṇa. But for your understanding you can make research work.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the secret.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the secret.

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

[ŚU 6.23]

If one has got unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and His representative, guru, then all the knowledge will be revealed to him automatically. Just like yourself. You are a big scientist. You have talked with me, you have studied with me, or you have examined me in so many ways. And I have also spoken whatever I had knowledge. Unless you are convinced, how you can say that "You are my spiritual master"? So what is the secret? I am not a scientist. I am not M.A., C.A. How do you agree to accept me as spiritual master? Because I stick to this principle, Kṛṣṇa and guru, that's all. This is the secret of guru.

So today is Baladeva-āvirbhāva. Baladeva, in the strength. Nāyam ātmā bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. You cannot understand, realize yourself, without the help of Baladeva. Therefore in the Vedic literatures = nāyam ātmā bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. You cannot become self-realized without the help of, without the mercy of Baladeva. Now, our Vivekananda Swami, he interpreted that "Unless you become stout and strong like the bulls and the buffalo, you cannot realize self." He interpreted like that. So he engaged people to make gymnastic, exercise. "You become very stout and strong, eat meat, and..." This is going on. This philosophy is going on. Bala-hīnena. "Unless you become as strong as a tiger, you cannot realize yourself." This interpretation is going on. Bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. Therefore they are... Always they put this argument, that "Our countrymen is suffering. There is no food. First of all we must give them food, make them strong, stout. Then we shall talk about Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Do they not say like that?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is another nonsense. Bala-hīnena does not mean this physical strength. Bala-hīn... Bala, bala means spiritual strength, Baladeva. Baladeva is spiritual strength. Nityānanda. Balarāma haila nitāi.

Brahmānanda: Hīna, hīna. Bala-hīna?

Prabhupāda: Hīna means without. And bala means strength. So śāstra says, nāyam ātmā bala-hīnena labhyaḥ: "One who is less strong, or one who has no support of the strength, then he cannot make any progress in spiritual..., self-realization." This is the Vedic injunction. So they interpret that unless you become physically strong, you cannot make any spiritual advancement. So? But in the Western countries we have seen, so many people physically very strong, stout and strong. Practically everyone. But what is their self..., advancement in self-realization? So these things are going on. So bala means spiritual strength, not material strength. Nāyam ātmā bala-hīnena labhyaḥ. That means one must be spiritually strong. And that spiritually strong means to have good faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru. That is spiritual strength. Therefore Baladeva means guru, spiritual strength. Balarāma haila nitāi. Nitāiyer karuṇā habe... What is that song? Nitāiyer karuṇā habe vraje rādha-kṛṣṇa pābe. He is... "If there is mercy of Nitāi, then..." [aside:] That Visvamsena, call him. [calls out to someone who is apparently leaving] [Hindi]

Indian man: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Aiye, sāheb.

Indian man: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Aiye.

Indian man: [Hindi] What is... What shall I do, coming?

Prabhupāda: Sit down. You can make some space. Aiye, aiye.

Indian man: [Hindi] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...the verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

idam hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

That everyone is situated in some business, occupation. So it is the duty of the person, never mind in whatever occupation he is engaged, uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam, to glorify the Supreme Lord. It doesn't matter whether he is a medical man or he is an engineer or a lawyer, or whatever he may be, politician, his only business is by his occupational duties to glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do not advise that you change your place. There is no need of changing place. Sthāne sthitāḥ. This is the Brahmā's version. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain your..., in your occupation, your position, but kindly hear. Therefore we have got so many śāstras, Vedic... Therefore the Vedic literature is known as śruti. One has to hear. But that education is lacking. Nobody is hearing the Vedic literature. They are hearing so many other things, but not... Therefore Bhāgavata says, śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ. Śrotavyādīni. The business is to hear.


śrotavyādīni rājendra
nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ
apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ
gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām

Gṛheṣu. We are now compact in our home. You take universal home or your house home or this body home, we are within. So gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Because we have taken that the home business is everything. Gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. And who has taken like this? Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam: one who cannot see the "What is the value of my existence," ātma-tattvam. So for them, śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, they have got many things to hear. Here, of course, in India, we have got newspaper, four pages, five pages, but in the foreign countries, especially in America, they'll present newspaper so big. Therefore there is paper scarcity. You see? Unnecessarily printing so much, huge quantity of newspaper. And people... Sometimes they do not touch it. The newspaper man throws in everyone's bungalow, and it is lying for three days. So who is going to read? But they are making their business, because they get advertisement. In the... Many news. So they have got to hear or understand so many news, but not this Bhāgavatam. They'll devote the whole day for reading this newspaper or some fiction or some novels, for this and that. Some political talks and... But they have no time to hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. Apaśyatām ātma... Because they have no, no interest in self-realization. There is no interest. People have lost all interest. This is the position. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential at the present moment.

Now, these European and Americans, they have enough heard about all these nonsense. Therefore they are anxious to hear about self-realization.

śrotavyādīni rājendra
nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ
apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ
gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām

[Hindi] He was punishable. It was the duty of the government to see that "You are posing yourself as brāhmaṇa. Whether you are doing the duty of a brāhmaṇa?" If he's not doing, then he was punished. Therefore nobody was unemployed. A brāhmaṇa is doing his duty, kṣatriya's doing his duty, vaiśya his duty. We get this information from Mahārāja Pṛthu's kingdom. He, he was very strict, that whether one is doing his duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. If the brāhmaṇa is doing his duty, the kṣatriya is doing his duty and vaiśya is doing his duty, then where is the unemployment? And it is the duty of the government to see that everyone is doing his duty.

Indian man (2): [indistinct] in the society.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Society means this combination of all these men. So if everyone is doing his duty, then it is quite all right. That is perfect society. Society means some combination of men. So if every man perfectly does his duty, then there is no question of imperfect...

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, that at the present moment, mostly person, they are śūdras. Just like in your body there are four divisions = your head division, your arm division, your belly division and your leg division. And if you cut off everything, simply you keep the legs, then what will be done? So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya. Maybe some vaiśyas only. Only śūdras. Therefore there is chaos. If the division is made, kept, as it is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], according to guṇa and karma, then the society is maintained very nicely, properly. If your head is working nicely, if your arms are working nicely, if your stomach is working nicely, leg is working..., then you are fit. But if you have got only legs, and head..., there is no head, there is no arm, then what is the...? Dead society.

So we are giving education at the present moment to become śūdras. Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. To serve others. A brāhmaṇa will not serve anyone else. A kṣatriya will not serve anyone else. A vaiśya will not serve anyone else. Only the śūdras. So at the present moment, we are giving śūdra education. Everyone is taking one application = "Give me some service." "No vacancy, sir." Therefore it is said, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ [Skanda Purāṇa]. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. And how you can have good government by the śūdras? Kṣatriya required. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit. He was touring. As soon as he saw one man is killing cow, "Who are you, rascal, killing cow in my kingdom?" Kṣatriya. Give protection, even to the cows. Prajā means one who has taken birth in that land. Why he should not be given protection? But because they are śūdras, they do not know what is the kṣatriya's duty, what is the government's duty. This is the position. Am I right or wrong?

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking according to our śāstras.

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: No, no. In those days the whole planet was Bhārata-varṣa. Therefore it is called Mahābhārata.

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: That was not small. That was very big. Parīkṣit Mahārāja was going on tour because he was the emperor of the whole planet.

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Now it is divided.

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: No, that was another thing. That was for..., fight for the right cause. Not for... It may be politically like that, but the division was there = brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And the last, Kṛṣṇa's compromising plan was that "After all, they are kṣatriyas, these five brothers. They cannot take the business of a vaiśya or brāhmaṇa. So give them five villages so that they may be satisfied, ruling over these..." "No, not even land holding the upper portion of the needle." Then there was fight. Then there was fight.

So as far as possible... Of course, our this movement is creating brāhmaṇas. People now require a brāhmaṇa, the head. Of course, we are not manufacturing anything. Everything is there. Everything is there in the śāstra. We do not invent anything. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ [Bg. 16.23]. The, we are trying to follow as far as possible, and we are teaching that, that whatever is there...

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: You are coming from Burdow?

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Near Lucknow?

Indian man (2): No.

Indian man (1): Near Bareilly.

Prabhupāda: Bareilly. Oh.

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Oh. [end]