Room Conversation with Scientists , Melbourne , 1974-07-02

Madhudviṣa: Dr. Harrap.

Dr. Harrap: How do you do?

Dr. Muncey: And Dr. Muncey.

Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse... [aside:] You have got first part?

Madhudviṣa: First part.

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.

Satsvarūpa: Idam?

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. [devotees search for verse]


idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Read.

Satsvarūpa: Translation = "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Satsvarūpa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection, or self-realization, depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by the viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies, because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.

"When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous topics, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification.

Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful, and all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All so-called knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all other similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord."

Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness = everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection.

Dr. Muncey: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world, but we don't seem to have got their life qualities good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this.

Dr. Harrap: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: They can record it?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not?

[noise of setting up equipment]

Dr. Harrap: This stand's got a complicated contraption here. It makes very little contact [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the Existence of the Supreme Scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this.

Satsvarūpa: [reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19] "When we think calmly and carefully about this wonderful universe, we can see that everything is working under the control of a supreme brain. The arrangements in nature are perfectly ordered. Things would be at random without the careful planning of a scientific and engineering brain. It is a common understanding that there is a cause behind each action. A machine cannot run without an operator. Modern scientists are very proud of automation, but there is a scientific brain behind automation also. Even Albert Einstein agreed that there is a perfect brain behind all the natural physical laws. When we talk about 'brain' and 'operator,' these terms imply a person. They cannot be impersonal. One may inquire who this person is. He is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist and supreme engineer, under whose kind will the whole cosmos is working. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says = 'The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.' [Bg. 9.8]

"Now let us look into a few samples from the Lord's creation, and upon contemplating these exemplary aspects, one should develop a better understanding and appreciation of the existence of the most powerful brain, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The sun that we see daily is the nearest star. It is one hundred earth diameters across and is ninety-three million miles away from the earth. Every day the sun supplies the solar system with a tremendous amount of heat, light and energy. 'The very tiny fraction of the sun's energy that falls on the earth---estimated at about five parts in a hundred million million---is about 100,000 times greater than all the energy used in the world's industries. The total energy the sun emits in a single second would be sufficient to keep a 1 kilowatt electric fire burning for 10,000 million million years. Put in a different way, the energy the sun emits in one second is greater than the whole amount of energy the human species has consumed throughout its entire history.' Yet it is only one of the countless number of stars floating in the sky in every direction. With the material scientific brain, the thermal, electrical and nuclear powerhouses have been made. These can supply heat, light and energy to a small, limited extent, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is supplying the whole planet with an unlimited source of energy just from one sun. Kṛṣṇa says = 'The splendor of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendor of the moon and the splendor of fire are also from Me.' [Bg. 15.12] The planets are revolving in a systematic path around the sun. Even within the smallest atom, the electrons and the protons are orbiting around the nucleus in a perfect manner.

"Thus, from the submicroscopic realm of the atom to the expanding reaches of the galactic objects, this material universe is running like intricate, well-oiled clockwork according to great natural physical laws and principles. Scientists have gained great acclaim for making a few spaceships, whereas Kṛṣṇa effortlessly produces gigantic spaceships, such as planets and stars, which are perfectly equipped and maintained. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni dhārayāmy aham ojāsa: 'I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit.' [Bg. 15.13] The laws made by the supreme brain always remain perfect; they are never violated. We never see the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. The colorful rainbow that we observe when the sun is shining during a shower is only visible when the sun is behind the observer, due to the laws of refraction. Also, each year the seasons change quite periodically, producing symptoms unique to each season.

Now let us look into some aspects of the Lord's creation at the molecular level. Chemists find that the different colors in flowers are due to chemicals called anthocyanins, and the different aromas are mostly due to chemicals called terpenes and terpenoid compounds. The molecular frameworks for these compounds range from very simple structures to very complex networks. Camphor, for example, is a terpenoid compound, and the characteristic odor of lemons is due to the molecule called limonene, which is one of the simple terpenes. Similarly, the characteristic colors in carrots and tomatoes are due to molecules called carotenoids, which are higher forms of terpenes. The molecular framework for each definite color or aroma is wonderfully unique. A little change in position of a few atoms in the molecule, a little variation in the geometry of the molecule or a slight change in the size of the molecule can cause a color to change from orange to red, a mild, pleasing aroma to become repellent and pungent, and a flavor to change from sweet to bitter.

"On one extreme we find the smallest molecule, the hydrogen molecule, which contains only two atoms of hydrogen. On the other extreme we find giant molecules such as the proteins and nucleic acids [DNA and RNA], the building blocks of all living material bodies, which contain innumerable atoms made for a definite function. Similarly, the crystalline pattern of each different molecule is unique. The geometrical shape for sodium chloride [common salt], for example, is cubical. Charcoal, graphite and diamonds are all derived from the same element, carbon, and yet the shining and transparent diamond is extremely hard, whereas graphite is soft, black and opaque. This is due to the difference in the crystalline forms of these molecules. In the crystal lattice of the diamond, each carbon atom is tetrahedrally surrounded by four other carbon atoms at a distance of 1.54 angstroms [one angstrom = 10<-8> cm.]. In graphite, by contrast, the three bonds of each carbon atom are distorted so as to lie in the same plane, the fourth bond being directed perpendicularly to this plane to link with a carbon atom of the neighboring layer.

"In this way we can cite innumerable examples of molecular networks so fantastically and delicately arranged that chemists cannot but wonder about the most expert hand and brain who is making all these wonderfully artistic arrangements in His laboratory. Indeed, the intelligence and ability of the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are inconceivable [acintya]. There is no scientist who can deny it. How, then, can any chemist abstain from appreciating the wonderful works of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa? In Bhagavad-gītā we find = 'One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.' [Bg. 8.9]

"At best, scientists can only try to imitate the wonderful artistic works of the Supreme Lord. They cannot even do this properly, and most of their attempts lead to failure and disappointment. Even when they are partly successful, it is only with the greatest difficulty. For example, Professor R. B. Woodward of Harvard, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry [1965] and Professor A. Eschenmoser of Zurich took eleven years to synthesize the vitamin B12 molecule. Altogether, ninety-nine scientists from nineteen different countries were involved just to accomplish this one small task. Yet Kṛṣṇa is making all these complex molecules at will.

"Interestingly enough, when scientists fail again and again in their attempts to make something, they consciously or unconsciously pray to God for help. Does this not indicate the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and the natural subordinate position of all other living entities? A crude example is the explosion that occurred inside the Apollo 13 spacecraft during its attempt to land on the moon on April 11, 1970. The Apollo capsule was made by hundreds of scientific and technological brains and cost millions of dollars. No one could predict that there would be an explosion. When it happened, however, and the lives of the three astronauts were in danger, those involved in the mission requested all the people on earth to pray to God for the safe return of the astronauts. Such is the situation. At times of danger, people tend to remember God, although at other times they forget Him.

"Now, let us look into some very simple and graphic examples of the artistry of the Lord's creation. We see that among the lower forms of living entities, social organization is very smoothly maintained. For example, in a bee colony the queen bee is nicely taken care of by the drones [male bees], while the workers collect nectar from flowers all day long. It is quite amazing to consider how the bees, with their tiny bodies, can collect such a great amount of honey for themselves as well as for other living entities. In this way, the colony is maintained with beautiful order. Similarly, the loving relationship between a mother and her baby is quite clearly visible even in very small forms of living entities. During the monsoon season in tropical countries, when there are torrents of rain, the small ants run to find shelter, carrying their eggs on their heads. The spider makes its wonderful webs with great architectural skill to serve as a shelter as well as to catch its prey for survival. Silkworms spin hundreds of yards of fine threads to form cocoons for their shelter during the pupa stage. Inside a tiny seed, smaller than the size of a mustard seed, the whole potency of a big banyan tree is present. In this way, we can see the wonderful arrangements of the Supreme Lord, who is creating, maintaining and guiding all living entities, small or big. Kṛṣṇa says = 'Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being---moving or unmoving---that can exist without Me.' [Bg. 10.39]"

Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it?

Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his...

Satsvarūpa: [reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57] "About the Author. Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa Brahmacārī was born in a Vaiṣṇava [devoted] family in Manipur, India, on February 25, 1941. His father, Jogendra Singh, died when he was a mere child. In 1961 he earned his B.S. degree, with highest honors, in Chemistry from Gauhati University, and he earned his master's degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemical Technology with similar honors from Calcutta University in 1964. He was a recipient of a Research Fellowship from the University Grants Commission [1964–1966].

"Allured by material advancement, he came to the United States of America and joined the Department of Chemistry, Canisius College, Buffalo, New York, in 1967 and obtained an M.S. degree in Chemistry in 1969. Then he joined the Department of Chemistry, University of California, Irvine, where he is finishing his Ph.D. in Physical Organic Chemistry."

Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background.

Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist?

Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the...

Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong to your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and...

Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centers where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the... Most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centers are working in that fashion. We have a school for children, where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America.

Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centers are, where some of them are?

Madhudviṣa: The centers are all over the world. We have centers in America and centers...

Prabhupāda: We have got forty centers in America.

Dr. Harrap: Forty.

Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes.

Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests.

Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language, but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge.

Dr. Muncey: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern-day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Harrap: Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, yes.

Dr. Muncey: We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholesterol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you?

Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful.

Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter...

Dr. Muncey: The milkfat and...

Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat.

Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? [guests laugh] How it is harmful? If it is harmful, why you are giving milk to the child?

Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two percent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different from the milk that we get from the non-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants.

Prabhupāda: But I think there is a book, Miracles of Milk, written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so..., has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholesterol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholesterol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to..., among many in the medical profession, to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter?

Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way, by a special feeding techniques to the cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk, because you'll find in this book that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk, is important, not other animal's milk.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk?

Prabhupāda: Human milk is natural.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk.

Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholesterol. [laughter] Cholesterol is no problem for you.

Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak one of our... Yes, you know him? One of our senior staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk.

Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa says that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. [aside:] Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa book?


vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam
paricaryātmakaṁ karma
śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

Translation = "Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others...

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa... We are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture.

Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and saturated...

Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely.

Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity.

Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between the polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana[?], I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex.

Prabhupāda: No, practically also we see, formerly big, big saintly person, they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the... He has written Mahābhārata, one hundred thousand verses, and similarly, this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk, and fruits. Yes.

Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncey has taken the lead in C.S.I.R.O. [Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation] in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat.

Dr. Muncey: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted---the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia, where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past.

Madhudviṣa: He wants... He would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with, as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world, and what Australia can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science and as well as general living.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, so far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries... The population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the overpopulated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad-gītā we have the statement... [aside:] Find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. [aside:] Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni.


annād bhavanti bhūtāni
parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ
yajñād bhavati parjanyo
yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

Translation = "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña, sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupāda: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain, both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps plowing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors... What is called? Tractor?

Madhudviṣa: Cultivators.

Prabhupāda: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation, and the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labor, and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop.

Dr. Muncey: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area..., the area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand, I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards.

Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain, because the terrain is just not suited to the grain-growing.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. The land is not suitable?

Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts or semi-deserts. The gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural..., the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us... You see, there's people that don't have the essentials, and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking, and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...these are all misconception, because I am not this body; I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit..., they are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian," "white," "black." Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge, that so long the spirit soul is there in the body it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?

Dr. Muncey: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it's material and dead, in the terms we use, and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that, that at that stage one has nothing to..., one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity, and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the important factor... Just like our this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination there is an active principle, which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect.

Dr. Muncey: I think I disagree with that.

Dr. Harrap: I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would place a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community.

Prabhupāda: That I admit. That I admit. Yes.

Dr. Harrap: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now?

Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this?

Dr. Harrap: Yes, yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.

Dr. Harrap: I agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screwdriving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition.

Dr. Harrap: It wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency...

Prabhupāda: Creative faculty... Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?

Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the... that I think that I...

Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist, but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist.

Dr. Muncey: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment; but we are, so I won't. [laughter] Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has there a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present.

Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. [aside:] So you can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweetball?

Satsvarūpa: Where are they? I could not find them just now.

Prabhupāda: You go and find out.

Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that..., what we call a gouda cheese, which comes originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries, and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. It seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more and more popular in these countries.

Prabhupāda: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations.

Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. People... A class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food.

Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other, non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya. It does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "elephant-rakṣya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-rakṣya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other, non-important animals, but don't kill animal, er, cow.

And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother = ādau mātā, real mother. Ādau mātā. Guru patnī, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brāhmaṇa, that is also mentioned there in the śāstra. So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī... In general the understanding is, except your wife, all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over = "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our Society, we get married. Your government has approved our Society that we can... So...

Madhudviṣa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages.

Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that?

Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." [laughter] Reverend Gordon Powell...

Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed, we wouldn't be here.

Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and... It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasure house of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life.

Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some...

Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first.

Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brāhmaṇa friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India?

Prabhupāda: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from... [aside:] You have got the first part of Bhāgavatam?

Cāru: Yes, right here. Part One?

Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra?

Satsvarūpa: That's not in that book. That's in Three, I think.

Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra. So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptoms of nuclear weapon... [to devotees:] Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho. That is...

Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume.

Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You say you have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, "Yes, we have got enough stock."

Madhudviṣa: We have them, but we do not have them here.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not... Here are people coming, gentlemen coming.

Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India's...

Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this." No. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. [aside:] Find out this verse.

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ


brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."

Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of that soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18] means a learned, advanced spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. Such-and-such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27].

Cāru: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā.

Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. [aside:] Find out this verse.


prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural..., material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body; next life I may get another body. That is explained = tathā dehāntara prāpti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, and then next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education? There is no science. But this is a fact.

Guest (2): [to other guest] Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in one?

Guest (1): I think you've answered...

Prabhupāda: Give them.

Madhudviṣa: These are preparation which is prepared from Australian milk.

Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes.

Guest (2): Oh, thank you.

Madhudviṣa: Give a napkin. It's a little sweet... It's a sweet preparation called gulābjāmun. It is all prepared just from milk which has been made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee, cooking ghee, and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and it is very palatable. It's called a gulābjāmun. It is a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires a great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely.

Prabhupāda: This cheese as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat.

Madhudviṣa: Protein.

Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein.

Prabhupāda: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk.

Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar...

Madhudviṣa: Syrup.

Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India?

Madhudviṣa: Yes, we make it ourselves.

Guest (2): You made it here.

Madhudviṣa: Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. [laughter] An ancient science.

Guest (2): Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take it. It is very nice.

Guest (2): You mean to eat it now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you take, you take it. You just...

Madhudviṣa: I can give you another.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you like, we shall give you more.

Satsvarūpa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though.

Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it.

Prabhupāda: And if you send us cheese like this, we can send you many things. [laughter]

Dr. Muncey: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family.

Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but... [laughter]

Dr. Muncey: It's very good.

Prabhupāda: Shall I give you more?

Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home?

Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes.

Dr. Muncey: Well, this has been most interesting.

Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Public relations for dairy research.

Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues, fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say---not we, but according to the scripture---there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products---not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products---the consumption of milk products and the development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, everything... Even if rice was boiled, milk was put on..., ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical, you know, progress.

Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajña. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.

Guest (2): Well, thank you very much...

Prabhupāda: Thank you very ... [break]

Madhudviṣa: ...and they liked the sweet ball.

Prabhupāda: Who has made?

Madhudviṣa: One girl. [end]