Room Conversation with Bhūrijana and Other Devotees , Melbourne , 1974-07-01
Prabhupāda: That is sense. [laughs] Otherwise nonsense, that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said?
naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā
sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ
kariṣye vacanaṁ tava
"Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions."
Prabhupāda: This is sense. [pause]
Bhūrijana: Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled.
Prabhupāda: Then unfortunate.
Prabhupāda: Continue. [laughter] Who can check?
Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense, though, exactly how far your instructions are, because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly...
Prabhupāda: You are old student.
Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like that. You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say... [long, silent pause] Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then is no advance. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhim sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatih [Bg. 16.23]. This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man. No. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect.
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa
[aside:] Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost.
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
sa kāleneha mahatā
yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa
Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa, this word is used.
Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost."
Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not affect. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now last night, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden.
Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam [Padma Purāṇa] = "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is kṛṣṇa-kathā, Kṛṣṇa's. Now, sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā: "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good; it is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, it is..., there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇavism. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says, "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa..." He cannot chant. That is a show-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no. Sanātana Gosvāmī says, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than... In other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many other, they could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient.
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is... There are so many... Such a big instruction book. It is not that whimsical. But still, we recommend that "Go on chanting." This will help you, anyone. That is also good. It is exactly like that if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time; only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes, you cannot [chuckles] take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry; immediately takes place.
Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied, "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. [chuckling] It will be useful, gradually the wood would dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied---"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"---that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. It require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. [break] You must get the flame. Otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "phat, phat, phat." As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it; let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. [laughter]
There is a very humorous story that one man... He was a yogī. So he approached---it is not story; it is fact---approached one big man that... As people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogī, "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can, in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga." So, "How long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night, or as long as you..." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, for one night, then I shall give you such-and-such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said, "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not... Either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no, sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa? During Kārttika month they... This is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said, "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." [laughing] [chuckles] That lamp was three miles away, and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." [aside:] Hmm. What is that? Some presentation?
Amogha: Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. [offers obeisances]
Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came = "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not...?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw. "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." [laughter] "So how you do this, such a nonsense?" "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply, so that man was paid. [laughter]
So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire, and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ... [Bg. 16.23]. [aside:] Hmm. So what are these things?
Amogha: I noticed this morning while... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. [laughter] [laughing] I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head, and never on the floor. So that is for you. [laughter] Yes. Then next? [laughter] Yes. It is good, nice.
Amogha: This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney---a scarf for you to wear in the cold.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice.
Amogha: And I also brought one from me.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Amogha: And some mangoes...
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is good.
Amogha: ...from Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are really difficult to get.
Prabhupāda: Very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not?
Prabhupāda: It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya-ca... Two fruits. One fruit is the nim tree fruit. You have seen nim tree? In not your country. Nim tree you have seen in India, and their fruits...
Bhūrijana: A little bitter.
Prabhupāda: Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow, they eat that nim tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this nim tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden---there is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere, and the crows... You have seen it?
Prabhupāda: They enjoy that. Tad-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham. It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham. [aside:] Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Satsvarūpa: Part One?
Prabhupāda: Na tad-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ [SB 1.5.10].
Jagattāriṇī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...no understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā, you will find the first beginning of teaching---dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Find out.
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
dhīras tatra na muhyati
"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education, because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. [to Bhūrijana:] She has also gone, your wife?
Bhūrijana: No, she will come back.
Prabhupāda: We... Our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram [Bg. 2.13]. Dehina, not the deha; dehi. [break] We are not working on deha. Deha means body, and dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the defect. Therefore it takes very, very long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body..." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education. They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education?
Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions, or nowadays meditation, like that.
Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close it. It is closed?
Satsvarūpa: Close the blind? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed.
Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. [long pause] [break]
Satsvarūpa: ...have to strain the juice from this mango?
Prabhupāda: And did you do it?
Satsvarūpa: No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice---first-quality rice, second-quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third-quality rice. So God has given = "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bāsmatī. I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, "Bahu..."---bahu means master---"this rice is not suitable for us." That fine bāsmatī rice, he did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have you seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes = "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. [break] ...the big animals, the living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13].
Cāru: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for.
Prabhupāda: No. Classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam." Everyone will like. That is classless = "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam," life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. At that stage, samatā, equality, when one is brahma-bhūta, spiritualized. Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here?
Prabhupāda: No, he has gone.
Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him.
Prabhupāda: All right. No, no.
Madhudviṣa: I can send for him. It's all right.
Prabhupāda: No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now?
Satsvarūpa: Ten to eight. [end]