Morning Walk , Germany , 1974-06-19
Prabhupāda: ...five items = no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat-eating, and chant sixteen rounds. Is it very difficult task?
Prabhupāda: And why people do not take it?
Haṁsadūta: They are just foolish.
Haṁsadūta: Just foolish.
Prabhupāda: If by following these five principles one can be saved from all problems of life... Still, people will not take it. [chuckles] Just see, strong māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. [break] What was the later-on talk?
Haṁsadūta: With her? She just left. But the other old lady, who was appreciating your movement, she was singing and dancing all night.
Prabhupāda: Ah. [chuckles]
Haṁsadūta: She was incredible. Singing and dancing and playing karatālas.
Prabhupāda: At present Christian religion is made easy. Christian religion made easy. What is that? Now, first of all Christ has taken out contract that "You go on committing all sinful life. I am guarantee it you will be saved." Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Or...? What is that?
Prabhupāda: So poor Christ has taken all concern. He will be crucified, and they will enjoy life. This is very easy religion. "I have nothing to do..."
Haṁsadūta: Just believe in Christ.
Prabhupāda: "...and besides that, if Christ says something to do, that also we can neglect, because he has taken guarantee. So although Christ says, 'Thou shalt not kill,' I can neglect that." And then, if still he is captured, he will say, "Bible is very old."
Haṁsadūta: "How can we accept it?"
Prabhupāda: [laughing] How they have made easy life, just see. Then... There is a story that a boy went for examination. So when he came back, his father asked, "My dear boy, how you have written your question paper?" "Yes, very nice." "How?" "No, those questions which were very difficult, I could not answer. And the easier question, what is to write? I know everything. [laughter] Easier questions, there is no need of writing. I know everything." Both ways he has not written anything. [chuckles] So these rascals, both ways they will not follow anything. And still, they will credit... Not only Christians; everywhere these people want to banish God. Simply we are canvassing, "God, God, God."
Otherwise, nobody cares. Say about 1945, so in front of my house there was an old man. So as neighbor, we had very good talks always. So as soon as I say "Bhagavān," he will be angry. "God." So one day he said, "Why you always say 'Bhagavān, God'?" Just see, an old man, and still he is such a rascal. He did not like. That is called demonism. Even the father of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that five-years-old boy, he was doing nothing harm, simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa---he became angry = "No, no." So big enemy that he wanted to kill him. This is demoniac. [japa] Some bad smell?
Haṁsadūta: I don't know. [break]
Prabhupāda: There was a movement, Moral Rearmament Movement, started from America.
Haṁsadūta: What was the name of it?
Prabhupāda: MRA. MRA, just like. Moral Rearmament Movement. Do you know, anyone of you?
Haṁsadūta: No. Do you, Satsvarūpa? No.
Prabhupāda: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that..., Christian principle, that "You do whatever it... Simply confess. Simply confess." So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel.
[break] ...substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?
Satsvarūpa: It will stay. We already have another generation coming up in gurukula. The big danger, you say, is faction.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. We shall go straight or right?
Haṁsadūta: Right. [break]
Prabhupāda: He has taken safety place, and from safety place he is killing other poor animals. That is not shooting. The kṣatriyas, they will shoot tiger face to face. Yes. Previously Jaipur Mahārāja, he used to go to the forest, and so he would simply fight with the tiger with a sword.
Haṁsadūta: That doesn't happen anymore today.
Prabhupāda: See, the tiger has got its nails and teeth and jaw. So there was no firearm. He will challenge the tiger with a..., and he will take a sword and kill him. And then the tiger would be brought in procession, giving all honor, military honor.
Haṁsadūta: To the tiger.
Prabhupāda: That was the kṣatriya's practice, how to combat his enemies. Fighting should be on the equal level, not that "I take all shelter, and you are open to be killed by enemy." [break] ...who understood the process of transmigration.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. [break]
Mādhavānanda: ...dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Could it be said, then, that we are transmigrating even while in this life?
Mādhavānanda: From boyhood to youth?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is transmigration? Transmigration means the first body you lose; you enter a second body, a third body, fourth. So your childhood body is not existing. Therefore you are in different body.
Mādhavānanda: So that way anyone can understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of understanding. And Kṛṣṇa says, the authority, that "This is the way." It is not that I have manufactured some philosophy. No. The most powerful authority, He says. So where is the position to deny it? Who can deny it, Kṛṣṇa's statement? If somebody denies, then he is a rascal. That's all. Therefore we say that we have no difficulty to find out a rascal. As soon as one denies this, Kṛṣṇa's statement, he is a rascal. That's it. Anyone who does not accept the transmigration of the soul, he is a rascal, that's all. Immediately. So easily understood, and still they will not understand. What is the possible objection?
Satsvarūpa: Well, that example can be understood, but for the materialist, he doesn't see how it applies to afterlife.
Satsvarūpa: The materialist doesn't see how that example is extended to afterlife, one takes another body. "I've changed from..."
Prabhupāda: Why? Why he does not?
Satsvarūpa: Because he can't perceive. He can perceive that he has changed from child to old man, but he can't perceive what is going to happen after death. So who knows?
Prabhupāda: But he cannot perceive that we, at night we change this body and go to another body when you dream? He cannot perceive? Huh? Your body, this body, is laid down on the bed, and you go away, and you are thinking that you are in Europe and America or in the sky or so many things. So what is that?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, while it's happening he can't perceive it.
Prabhupāda: But that is happening. He is seeing. He is a man. He is seeing. Why he cannot perceive? What is the difficulty? What is the answer, anyone?
Mādhavānanda: He is in illusion.
Prabhupāda: Illusion. You are seeing an illusion? Some tiger is coming. You are crying, "Save me, save me." It is illusion. This body is also illusion. But you are affected. That means you are experiencing. How you can say that you are not perceiving? And when in dream you see your beloved or woman and man, there is no..., nothing such thing, but still, there is discharge. Why? Why you are not perceiving? How you can say that you are not perceiving? It is perceiving. What is the answer? You are perceiving every night...
Satsvarūpa: Yes, in dreams.
Prabhupāda: ...that you leave this body, you accept another body and do something else which you see. If that is illusion, then this is also illusion. Because in daytime you forget that night activities, and at night you forget the day activities. So this is also illusion. So therefore you are in illusion. That's a fact, day and night, day and night. That is called māyā. This is also māyā. But they have accepted this as fact. The gross illusion they have taken as fact. This is also illusion. You are thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "German." What is that? By one kick of nature you are out, the cat and dog. This is also illusion. What is not illusion?
Haṁsadūta: So there are also living beings, they accept the subtle material as illusion just as we are accepting this gross?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. Therefore the problem is where is my real life? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one understands, the rascal, that "This is also illusion. This is also illusion. Then where is my active life?" that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Haṁsadūta: I was hearing some statement about..., from mediumship, of people who had died and they are living on a subtle platform, and they don't actually know that they have died. They are so absorbed that they mentally...
Prabhupāda: That is all... They may think like that, but this is practical thing. Try to understand that in daytime you are illusioned by this gross body, and at night you are illusioned by the subtle body. So both of them are illusion. Therefore if you are intelligent, your inquiry should be, "What is my real life?" That is intelligence, "What I am?" That is... Sanātana Gosvāmī placed before... "What I am?" Ke āmi. That "I am simply hovering in illusion, gross and subtle. Then what is my real position? What I am?" That is real philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is called Brahman. When I am Brahman, so that is the beginning = "What I am? What is my position?" That illusion is going on. So the material life means he is in illusion for millions and millions of years. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgya... So out of many such millions and millions' living entities, one becomes conscious that "What is my real life?" That is awakening. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Then he begins his devotional life = "My real life is this."
Mādhavānanda: Then as soon as one begins to understand who he is, the transmigration stops.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that understanding? His understanding is that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, so let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa as He wants and serve Him." This is life. As soon as he is on this platform, then he is out of illusion. And if he is perfect, then just after giving up this body he goes to Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. If he does not fall from this transcendental service of Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after death he is transferred. Just like we are transferred from this gross body to subtle body, similarly, death..., after death a devotee is transferred immediately to the Kṛṣṇa, where Kṛṣṇa is there, either within this material world or... They are first of all given chance to go to Kṛṣṇa. In any brahmāṇḍa there is Kṛṣṇa. Nitya-līlā is going on. So he is born there. Then actually plays with Kṛṣṇa, dance with Kṛṣṇa, talks with Kṛṣṇa. Apprenticeship. This is also apprenticeship here. So is there any difficulty of perception?
Prabhupāda: Why he said that "I have no perception"? There is perception, every day, every night. How you can say there is no perception? The perception is so strong, sometimes one dreaming some horrible position, he cannot more sleep. The sleep breaks. So why there is no perception? He is so much troubled that breaks. He immediately comes to the safe side of this gross body.
Devotee (1): Yes, takes shelter.
Prabhupāda: So how do you say there is no perception? So this transmigration of soul takes place that... Just like in daytime we are in this body, nighttime we leave this body and work with the subtle body, so transmigration soul takes place---with that subtle body he enters the womb of suitable mother, and this body is left. And there he grows again this gross body, and then comes out. Is it difficult to understand? That is not illusion; that's fact. And death means that you left this gross body, and the period you do not come out in another gross body, that period is called death. That period is called death.
Satsvarūpa: So you are dead for about nine..., seven months.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be, according to the body you are getting. There are 8,400,000 species of body. So according to your work you will be allowed to enter into the womb of mother. How can you check it? Where is your scientist? That is nature's law---automatically. Just like if you are infected, you get this disease. That's all. There is no need of mother nature will take personal... No, the rules are so fine that you will get automatically. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8]. The Kṛṣṇa's energies are so powerful and subtle that it takes..., everything takes automatically. One set up, then after that, after that, after that, after that---everything is there. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have no control. You are simply under the grip of material nature. Everything, whatever you are doing, immediately it is being recorded automatically. Just like automatic printing press = you simply push the paper, and magazine comes. If you can manufacture some machine, you rascal, then how subtle machine can work on under the supervision of the Supreme?
Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that if we could remember our past life, we would go crazy.
Mādhavānanda: If we could remember what our past lives were, we would go mad, because it is so frustrating to continue transmigrating.
Prabhupāda: Even in this life we experience so much frustration. Even if we remember now, we become horrible = "Oh, I was in this state of life; I was in this state of life." Immediately shudder. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has saved me." You should be obliged that Kṛṣṇa has given you shelter. You should... "Do not go again to that other platform." That is intelligence. The other day who was telling me that in northern Pole, because there is no day, so many people commit suicide? Is it not?
Satsvarūpa: I don't know.
Mādhavānanda: Sweden has the highest suicide rate.
Prabhupāda: Because that is horrible condition for any intelligent man. There is no day. Why they commit suicide in Sweden?
Mādhavānanda: Because it is horrible condition.
Prabhupāda: On account of that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Mādhavānanda: So I hear.
Prabhupāda: So just see how Kṛṣṇa's management, nature's management, there is day and night, day and night, day and night. Otherwise it is horrible. If it is all simply day, it is horrible also. And if it is simply night, that is also horrible. So He is so kind He has given day and night, day and night. [japa] Do not be misled by this illusion as others are being. Stick to Kṛṣṇa to save. That is the only... Is Sweden..., Stockholm also like that?
Mādhavānanda: Yes. [aside:] Who is from Stockholm?
Mādhavānanda: This is what I heard.
Prabhupāda: Stockholm also like that?
Haṁsadūta: In the winter months there is only a few hours', a few hours' sunlight. Then it goes down.
Prabhupāda: Three hours.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, in the winter, it's very, very long winter.
Devotee (2): The same thing in the summer. Some days the sun is shining all day and night.
Prabhupāda: In Sweden?
Devotee (2): Yes. In the north. Midsummer night.
Prabhupāda: There is no night, only day?
Prabhupāda: I have seen in Moscow. Practically, the night begins at half past eleven, and again morning, half past three or four. That I have seen in month of June. Night begins at half past eleven. I have seen when the night... That is also not full night. It is not full night. So in this way, after few hours... So half past eleven to half past three, how many hours? Three hours.
Haṁsadūta: Three hours, four hours.
Prabhupāda: Three hours, I think. No? Anyway.
Mādhavānanda: Four hours.
Prabhupāda: Four hours. Again daytime. That I have seen.
Haṁsadūta: And in the winter it is just the opposite---always dark and a few hours' day.
Prabhupāda: It is winter, at the same time dark. How happy life, just see. [chuckles] Advanced civilization. No light, and winter. And still, they are happy. [laughs]
Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that to stop this transmigration, one has to become completely disgusted with this material world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, unless..., how he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? If he takes as a fashion, that is another thing. Just like the man who cannot tolerate commits suicide. Therefore you told me. Yes. One who is completely disgusted with this material life, he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Satsvarūpa: What about Lord Caitanya, who prayed that "I don't mind coming back again and again"?
Prabhupāda: That is devotee's sincerity, that he does not go to Kṛṣṇa for some material profit. Any condition, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is his humbleness. And a devotee, actual devotee, he doesn't want. But it happens. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti [Bg. 4.9]? It will take automatically. But he is not, I mean to say, very serious, that "I must go to Kṛṣṇa and be saved from these material miseries." A devotee never says that. He wants that "Never mind miseries. Let me chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is his position.
Satsvarūpa: For us, is the perfection to be absorbed in preaching to others?
Satsvarūpa: Rather than thinking, "I want to go and play with Kṛṣṇa"?
Prabhupāda: No. Your... Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is Caitanya. Yes.
Satsvarūpa: To everyone, tell them about Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: Not thinking, "Oh, when will I go to Kṛṣṇaloka?"
Prabhupāda: No, it doesn't matter. You give him good advice. Just like a canvasser. He canvasses for selling some books or some... If does not sell, he is not a culprit. He has done his job. That is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. [japa] Devotee does not make any bargain with Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa will give me this benefit; therefore I have become pure devotee." That is not devotee. Prahlāda Mahā... He is a merchant = "You give me this price. I will deliver this clothing." That is not devotion. Āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu māṁ marma-hatāṁ karotu vā [Cc. Antya 20.47] = "Any condition, I am Your slave. Whatever You like, You can do with me." That is the sign, not that "If it is favorable to my idea, then I accept You." That is not devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], no desire.
The only desire = "Please accept me as Your eternal servant again." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā: "Now, if You like, You can kill me; if You like, You can keep me. Whatever You like, I am prepared." Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. That is surrender. [japa] [break] Similarly, if we live on the nature's way, there is no problem. The extra brain and intelligence which we have from the lower animals, we are utilizing for the same purpose, the animal life. That the lady was, "Now we are advanced, so..." [a car stops] It is our car?
Prabhupāda: [japa] Harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. There is a camp. [break] We can return now.
Haṁsadūta: Okay. [end]