Room Conversation with German Women Philosophers , Germany , 1974-06-17

Pṛthu: [translating guest's comments] ...that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be... She has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that.

Prabhupāda: After death?

Pṛthu: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So everyone will get that peace?

[translated into German throughout]

German lady (1): [German] [break].

Pṛthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace.

Prabhupāda: The cats and dogs? Everyone? The same?

German lady (1): [German] [break]

Pṛthu: ...different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on.

Prabhupāda: So what is that difference? [break]

Pṛthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have..., animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts.

Prabhupāda: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose... Just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? [break]

Pṛthu: She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and...

Prabhupāda: But the activity is the same = eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities?

German lady (1): [German]

Pṛthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spiritual, this. She says that is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I think the... When a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? [break]

Pṛthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the..., but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence?

Pṛthu: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same.

[break] ...such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced = the dog or the man?

German lady (1): [German]

Pṛthu: Yes, she admits that the man, by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do that, she says.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? [break]

Pṛthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and...

Prabhupāda: So is that very good intelligence?

German lady (1): [German]

Pṛthu: So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She's, this intelligence is...

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog?

German lady (1): [German] [break]

Haṁsadūta: ...like to have more, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No.

Pṛthu: She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he actually misuses his intelligence.

Prabhupāda: But God has given intelligence for this bad work?

German lady (2): [German]

Pṛthu: She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind.

Prabhupāda: Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now, suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful?

German lady (1): [German]

Pṛthu: She says that this is the evil in mankind.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the conclusion is that the so-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes.

German ladies: [German]

Prabhupāda: And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? [break]

Pṛthu: She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men.

Prabhupāda: Bad men also will get peace?

German lady (1): [German]

Pṛthu: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. [laughter] Just see how nonsense philosophers they are.

German lady (2): [German]

Pṛthu: She says that this is not, this... She's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men.

Prabhupāda: She said the bad man also will get peace. [laughs]

German lady (2): [German]

Pṛthu: So this lady's point is = where shall the bad man go after death?

Prabhupāda: He'll become a dog.

German lady (2): [German]

Pṛthu: She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell.

Prabhupāda: He may not believe, but hell is there. If... [aside:] You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said, "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ.

Pṛthu: What is it?

Prabhupāda: Ūrdhvam. And she is a philosopher?

German lady (2): [German]

Pṛthu: She says she is a primitive, simple man.

Prabhupāda: But still not willing to go to hell. [aside:] You found?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ...

Prabhupāda: Sattva-sthāḥ.


madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ

"Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets, those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds."

Prabhupāda: Just... Translator.

Satsvarūpa: Pg. 666... Well, it's 14.18. [devotee translates into German] [break]

Pṛthu: ...where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where this hellish worlds are?

Prabhupāda: They're, they are different planets.

German lady (3): [German]

Pṛthu: She wants to know how we know this.

Prabhupāda: From the books. [break]

German lady (3): [German] [break]

Pṛthu: So she feels... It seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to..., to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them.

Prabhupāda: Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus' order. [break]

Pṛthu: ... she saying.

Prabhupāda: Jesus has given some instruction or not?

German lady (3): [German]

Pṛthu: So he says that Jesus has given some directions, and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves, and that we should not do any harm to him.

Prabhupāda: But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell. Is it not? Satsvarūpa?

Satsvarūpa: I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

German lady (3): [German]

Pṛthu: Yes, yes. She says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teaching, like the Jesus said.

Prabhupāda: Eternally hellish life.

Pṛthu: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So then why she says that everyone will go, peace?

German lady (3): [German] [break]

Pṛthu: She makes no... She said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much, because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus... This was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus...

Prabhupāda: I don't follow. What is that? Hmm?

Satsvarūpa: She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Satsvarūpa: This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did, because he was long ago.

Prabhupāda: Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus?

German lady (3): [German] [break]

Pṛthu: ...like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give...

Prabhupāda: That means everyone has rejected Jesus.

German lady (3): [German] [break]

Pṛthu: ...that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pṛthu: She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly.

Haṁsadūta: Literally.

Pṛthu: Literally.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? I do not follow.

Haṁsadūta: That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally, because who knows.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you quote? [break]

Pṛthu: So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true.

Prabhupāda: But if you..., if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? [break] ...new truth.

German lady (3): [German]

Pṛthu: So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes...

Prabhupāda: So there is no truth. It is all hodgepodge.

German lady (3): [German]

Pṛthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what...

Prabhupāda: So it is a hodgepodge. [laughter]

German lady (2): [German]

Pṛthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pṛthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements...

Prabhupāda: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally.

Pṛthu: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of taking Bible?

German lady (2): [German] [break]

Pṛthu: ...that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? [break] [end]