Morning Walk , Paris , 1974-06-13

Prabhupāda: What do you understand by the word māyā?

Yogeśvara: "That which is not."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Things which we place value on that have no relation to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. The māyā is explained very nicely in the Bhāgavata, yathābhāso yathā tamaḥ [SB 2.9.34]. Just like sun is reflected in the water, and the light is reflected again on the wall. This is the exact explanation of māyā. Reality... This material world, the man who manufactured all these things, nobody knows where he has gone. But these things are taken as reality. This will be also finished. It will remain as relics, as Rome, relics, but when it was..., the houses were prepared with great enthusiasm as reality. And now it is as relics. So the energy expended for manufacturing those house, that is also māyā, and now they are being visited as relics, that is also māyā. So all these things are māyāra vaibhava, expansion of māyā. So if somebody says that you don't appreciate these things, no, we appreciate, very much appreciate intelligence. But if you, for this appreciation, if you forget, then it is māyā. Forget Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Then it is māyā. Otherwise, it is reality. If they would have installed Deity worship in these buildings, how much nice it would have been---people chanting, dancing, and taking prasādam, twenty-four hours. Then it is no more māyā; it is reality. Such big, big, nice houses, they should have been places of worshiping Kṛṣṇa. But they're worshiping bones, keeping some dead bones, and...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People must be educated that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Why do they not understand?

Paramahaṁsa: The government argues that they do not want to discriminate against any religious faith. So they remain secular.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is no government... Religious faith is different. That is nonsense. You..., we are talking of science. We are, just like we were saying that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So where is the..., any religious feeling? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, how you can say no? Can you say?

Paramahaṁsa: They can say, "We don't know Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: You don't know Kṛṣṇa, but it belongs to somebody. He may be named as Kṛṣṇa or something else. That doesn't matter. But it is..., it does not belong to you. How you can deny it? You have come here... Suppose I have come here, in Paris. I stay here for one week, two. Does it mean Paris is mine? Similarly, you come from the womb of your mother and stay here, say, fifty years. That is, mean, yours? The same example. Does it mean that the world belongs to you? Why you are claiming, "This is France," "This is Europe," "This is America," "This is mine," "This is mine"? Before your birth it was there, and when you go, it will remain there. So how you claim that it is yours? So you don't... You must know as it remained, it was there before my birth, and it will remain after my departure. Then how it belongs to you? What is the answer?

Paramahaṁsa: It belongs to the man who created it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: It belongs to the man who created it and is conscious of its origin.

Prabhupāda: Who created? Who created? You created this stones and sand?

Paramahaṁsa: Nature.

Prabhupāda: Then what is nature?

Satsvarūpa: The life force working behind...

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Satsvarūpa: They'd say the life force that is working...

Prabhupāda: Therefore nature is... Behind the nature, there is Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa... [Bg. 9.10].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're so tiny, one ten-thousandth the tip of a hair, and yet we can become so puffed-up as to think that even I am God or I am the controller of the material nature, like the scientists are thinking?

Prabhupāda: Because they are in the bodily concept of life, they are thinking, "I'm not teeny, small particle. I am this big, fatty body." He's thinking like that. Just like a dog is thinking, "I am bulldog." It is like that, the same concep...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that idea is just in the mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is animalism. [japa] [pause] [break]

Paramahaṁsa: ...performing these works and these creations independent of God.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: The materialist sees himself acting independent of God.

Prabhupāda: How he's independent of God? Napoleon wanted to finish that arch, and he was kicked out. How he's independent of God? Such a big person, strong person, he wanted to finish, but he was not allowed to finish. Then how he thinks that he's independent. That is foolishness, that I can be kicked out at any moment, and still he's thinking, "I am independent." What is the answer? Why he was kicked out? He was a very powerful man, and why he was kicked out? "No, you cannot finish. You cannot. Get out immediately." Then? Where is his independence? He was simply falsely puffed-up, independent. And now, after being kicked out, if he has taken this body of a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. The nature is so strong, and the laws are so stringent. We are not independent. If you touch fire---fire is one of the elements---it will burn your finger. However powerful you may be, you cannot stop it. Then where is your independence?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We studied a verse yesterday evening in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Eighteenth Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says, "Work always under My protection."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says to always work under His protection, that "One may be engaged in all sorts of activities, but in the end, by My grace, you will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. [japa]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the activities of the materialistic man, then, no matter what he does, he will develop another material body for it. [indistinct] mental impression. Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And a devotee is acting, but he's not getting any mental impression from his activities?

Prabhupāda: His mind is being... His mental expression is Kṛṣṇa. He's always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. [japa] We have got some propensity to create. Just like this beautiful place. We have got creative energy. Therefore it is advised that nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255] = make it for Kṛṣṇa. You'll find in India, they have also created big, big temple, four flight, but for Kṛṣṇa. Then the energy spent for creating this park in relationship with Kṛṣṇa will be utilized as service to Kṛṣṇa. And if it simply meant for sense gratification, then you are under the laws of nature, contaminated. Just like if a man is very powerful, he's creating this park, but he is contaminated with some infection, he, will he not suffer?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He must suffer.

Prabhupāda: Does it mean that because he has created this park, therefore contamination will not act upon him? Is it a fact? It must act. So after creating all these things, if you contaminate some infectious modes of material nature, then you have to accept the body of cats and dogs. Then what is your benefit? Huh? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. Kāraṇam, the reason for high and low grade birth, is due to contamination with the modes of material nature. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, we said that..., Prahlāda Mahārāja said that he didn't fear Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva, even though He was so ferocious, but he feared the material nature.

Prabhupāda: That is contamination. If I be contaminated with the material nature, then I'll have to accept a body given by material nature.

Paramahaṁsa: But it's said that a devotee's supposed to be fearless.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: It is said that a devotee is supposed to be fearless.

Prabhupāda: Fearless because devotee means one who has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa. He is devotee. He's fearless. And one who has not taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, how he can be fearless? Suppose there is epidemic disease. If you have got vaccination, then you can remain fearless. Otherwise, the epidemic will contaminate and you'll have to suffer. So Kṛṣṇa is the vaccination to remain fearless.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have used the example, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that just like a little child, when he's near his father, he knows he has nothing to worry about. His father will protect him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [japa] Today it is cold, eh? Where is our Karandhara?

Bhagavān: Karandhara Prabhu. He's here.

Prabhupāda: You are feeling very cold?

Karandhara: Not too cold, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I am feeling. Old man.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like this blanket also, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. [japa]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So as soon as the modes of nature are no longer working on the spirit soul, then he experiences that he's no longer changing his body?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā dura...
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The thing is that if I am so much susceptible to the contamination of māyā, the modes of material nature, then if I waste my time in material advancement of life, is it not risky?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very risky.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just the other morning, you were lecturing that just because we are young, we should not waste a moment here and think that "Oh, I have so much time to live. Let me put off Kṛṣṇa consciousness..."

Prabhupāda: That is falt consciousness. Prahlāda Mahārāja said "Immediately." Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān [SB 7.6.1]. No waste of time. Our policy is that. Therefore we have opened Dallas, that immediately, from the very beginning of life, let them understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda if the devotee is fearless, how is it that Prahlāda was expressing his fearfulness of material nature?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: If the devotee is fearless, how is it Prahlāda was expressing his fearfulness of the material nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even you are fearless, you should not be fool. Because if you know that "There is danger. I must be very careful," that is intelligence. That is not fearfulness. Besides that, a devotee like Prahlāda, he's fearless, but he's fearful for others. That is stated. Just like the mother = she knows that she'll not catch fire, she'll not fall down in the water, but she is always anxious to see her child that the child may not fall into the water, may not catch fire. She's working in her own way, but always fearful of the child. Similarly, a Vaiṣṇava, he's not fearless for himself, but because he's sympathetic, because he knows that all these rascals, they are wrongly wasting their time, therefore he's anxious, fearful. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. They are unhappy by seeing others unhappy. For themselves, there is no unhappiness. That is their grace. And Vaiṣṇava is fearless. Even if he's sent to hell, he's not unhappy, because wherever he goes, he'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So actually he has no fear, fearfulness. He is only unhappy... Just like we are talking. Others may think that we are criticizing, but we are actually talking. Suppose this one who has manufactured this big park, and if he has, next life, he has become contaminated, the dog's life, then what is the use? How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? It is under the management of material nature, maram[?], very powerful. Just like even a big man like Napoleon, he's also under the control of material nature. As soon as the time is..., "Get out." "No, I want to finish this arch." "No, sir, you get out." Then where is your powerfulness? That they do not know. For the temporary power, they become puffed up and go to hell. That's all. But they have no conception of hell. These are primitive ideas.

Yogeśvara: It's sometimes very hard to feel a compassion for others when we ourselves are still feeling so much contaminated.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: We, in the neophypte stage, we're feeling ourselves so much attacked by māyā that sometimes it's very difficult...

Prabhupāda: Therefore those who do not take risk, they do not remain within this material world. They go to the Himalaya, go to the forest. They are afraid of being contaminated. But more liberal devotees, they take the risk and "Never mind I shall go to hell. Let me do something for Kṛṣṇa. Let others may understand something of Kṛṣṇa." That is their, mean magnanimity, taking the risk of going to hell, still, giving the information, "Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa." So such person are exalted, because they are taking their own risk to serve Kṛṣṇa, that "At least one man may understand Kṛṣṇa." And others, they are flying, flying away, fleeing away, "No, no. We are not going to take risk."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says that there's no one more dear to Me than...

Prabhupāda: Goṣṭhyānandī and bhajanānandī. Bhajanānandī means they are interested for their own welfare, and goṣṭhyānandī, he wants to see that more devotees are there. That is the difference.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, Prahlāda Mahārāja said that he's not feeling any anxiety for himself...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.

Paramahaṁsa: He's feeling anxiety that they're not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: They're... And on account of his being so..., taking the risk, he is immediately very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is declared in the Bhagavad-gītā, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69] = "Anyone who is trying to broadcast My message, My glory, he immediately, there is no more dearer than him anyone." So one should take this risk.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday you said that Kṛṣṇa appreciates the devotee when he accepts voluntary adversity.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, you said that Kṛṣṇa appreciates when a devotee accepts voluntary adversity.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like the kings who gave up everything to live an ascetic life.

Paramahaṁsa: But how do we know what... How do we know when we should accept this adversity? Sometimes people artificially...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Adversity, not always to accept. But you have to follow the regulative principle enjoined in the śāstras. That is, in one sense... Suppose you are accustomed to certain type of, standard of living, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake you have to give it up. That kind of adversity. That is not actually adversity, but he thinks that "I have taken this voluntary..." What is this, electric? So not a single useful tree. These trees are no fruits, no flowers.

Yogeśvara: Yes. Can we call these trees demonic?

Prabhupāda: Not demonic. Sinful.

Paramahaṁsa: They have many seeds to reproduce themselves, but no fruits or flowers.

Prabhupāda: Impious, not pious. What is the name of this park?

Yogeśvara: The Tuileries Park.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: The Tuilerie Garden.

Prabhupāda: Tuilerie.

Yogeśvara: Tuilerie Garden.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the name of a person?

Devotee: No, no.

French devotee: It was the park of a king before. There was a king.

Prabhupāda: Oh, the king is a park only.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So you were explaining that they're naming everything in the material world after different people in regards to Lake Geneva. You said, "It's Geneva's lake, but actually, it is Kṛṣṇa's lake and Kṛṣṇa's park."

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they have no sense. They think it is Geneva's park. Harer nama... [Cc. Ādi 17.21].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We could call it Puruṣottama Park, or something like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Therefore we give name everyone = Kṛṣṇa dāsa, servant of Kṛṣṇa. [japa] [pause] [break]

Paramahaṁsa: ...and we give them the argument, "Could you eat if we brought you the cow and let you kill her yourself?" and they say, "No, I could not do that." [Prabhupāda chuckles] But yet, when the cow's meat is killed and wrapped up in a nice wrapper, they eat, and they don't have any bad feeling about it.

Prabhupāda: This is called māyā. He cannot face the actual situation, but, covered by some māyā, he accepts. This is another example of māyā. Directly killing the animal he cannot tolerate, but when it is covered by māyā, the same danger he accepts.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is like the people, they say that "The air is very polluted. We cannot breathe it now." And they will smoke cigarettes also.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, our preaching work is when we show people how, by avoiding Kṛṣṇa, they actually kill themselves.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. Suicidal. Ātma-han. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "Knowingly, I am drinking poison." Knowingly. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu.

hari hari! bifale janama goṅāinu
manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā,
jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

[Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura]

Biṣa khāinu means drinking poison. [pause]

Paramahaṁsa: Although a devotee feels helpless in the hands of Kṛṣṇa, still, in order to execute his duty, he must be very strong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: How does he reconcile those two?

Prabhupāda: He must work for Kṛṣṇa. He is not doing anything for himself. He's doing for Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa's sake, one can take any kind of risk. Just like the karmīs, they take any kind of risk for earning some money, similarly, bhakta also will take any kind of risk to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Guru-kṛṣṇa. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. [refering to park] So it is not very clean. Why?

Paramahaṁsa: Many, many people come here every day, and not too many people clean. It's difficult to have people clean. They think it's too low as an occupation.

Devotee: They spend their money making bombs instead of sanitation. [Prabhupāda laughs] [pause] Muci.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Paramahaṁsa: Instead of taking bath every day, they use perfume on their body. Fifty years ago, very few people had a shower in the home, and they would go to a public bath once a week or twice a week for a bath. Most of the time they clean themselves off with alcohol.

Prabhupāda: They still, in Germany, they have no bath in every house. They go to the public bath. Is it not? They, simply they have got only one toilet. That's all. And for taking bath, they go to the public house. They have to pay some... [break] Hmm?

Devotee: The creation of the materialism is only one-fourth.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: What happened to the other three-fourths?

Prabhupāda: What is this picture?

Paramahaṁsa: It's a Greek myth.

Prabhupāda: Whom he's killing?

Paramahaṁsa: It's a man with the head of a...

French devotee: ...the head of a bull. The head of a bull.

Devotee: Head of donkey.

Prabhupāda: No, it is goat, goat.

French devotee: C'est la minotaur.

Paramahaṁsa: These are called centaurs.

Devotee: It's a man with a bull's head.

Yogeśvara: Like Dakṣa.

Prabhupāda: Dakṣa?

Yogeśvara: Dakṣa has a head of a goat.

Prabhupāda: Dakṣa. Dakṣa. Yes. Mahārāja Dakṣa. [japa]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In order to chant the holy name purely, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it necessary to feel separation?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In order to chant the holy name purely, is it necessary to have feelings of separation?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided he has got the taste for chanting. Otherwise he'll sleep, that's all. [pause] These are all buildings for museum?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, and some small parts are used for administrative offices, the government and police. This used to be a king's palace.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: This used to be the king's palace, of France.

French devotee: [indistinct]

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, this was the palace before they built the big palace in Versailles. Versailles is like a demigod's planet. It's the most wonderful building in all of France. Everything in gold, and wonderful paintings. Very, very big, and wonderful gardens and rivers. The king of France was very intelligent. In order to keep the nobles from revolting against him, he invited them all to his palace to enjoy with him. And he gave them wonderful feasts and a lot of sex life and wonderful music. And like this, they never revolted during his time. This was Louis the Fourteenth.

French devotee: He was called the Sun King.

Paramahaṁsa: They call him the saintly king.

French devotee: Sun, sun.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, the Sun King.

Prabhupāda: What is that Sun King?

Paramahaṁsa: [aside] Why do they call him "Sun King"?

French devotee: Because he was very opulent.

Paramahaṁsa: Today, the French people collect millions of dollars every year from the Americans to keep Versailles beautiful.

Prabhupāda: American tourists pay.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, many hundreds and thousands of American tourists come there every year just to see this opulence.

Yogeśvara: The Americans appreciate opulence. That's why we joined your movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [chuckles] Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna [Bg. 7.16]. So because in your previous life you had been pious, you have got your life in America, and now utilize it. Certainly I, several times I have told, that your previous life you were pious. There is no doubt about it. And now utilize that opportunity. You have got opulence. You have got money. You have got intelligence. Utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. And Kṛṣṇa has also come. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has come to your country. So utilize it properly.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think we must be extraordinarily fortunate that Lord Kṛṣṇa, He appears once in a day of Brahmā, and He appeared just five thousand years ago. And then Lord Caitanya just appeared five hundred years ago, and we have an opportunity to associate with Them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Always remember this grace of Lord and utilize it. [long pause] So these houses were constructed before Napoleon or after Napoleon?

Yogeśvara: Before.

French devotee: Oui. Oui. These big house?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

French devotee: Before Napoleon. But this arch is called Carrousel Arch, and that's for Napoleon.

Prabhupāda: After Napoleon?

French devotee: On the glories of some victories in Germany, you know, and... [break]

[pause] [end]