Morning Walk , Paris , 1974-06-11

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: He's puffed-up.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not puffed-up. It is simply foolishness, that "Because I do not know, therefore all others..." Ātmavat manyate. Everyone thinks of others in his own standard. But that argument is not valid.

Bhagavān: Is that the same psychology, that they..., they only know of material body, so that when they think of God, they think that God has material body also.

Prabhupāda: That is still lower-grade man. But so far experience that "I have not... God is beyond my experience." Another point that in the Bible, Christ, Lord Christ, says that "My Lord, Thy be hallowed..." What is that?

Devotees: "Hallowed be Thy name."

Prabhupāda: So God has name.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."

Prabhupāda: Eh? So he admits God has His name. But it may be that he did not disclose or did not like to say, but there is already name. So it is up to the followers to know what is that name.

Yogeśvara: The Guru Maharaj-ji followers say that God's name cannot be pronounced.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: They say that God's name cannot be...

Prabhupāda: No, Guru Maharaj-ji is a rascal. Don't, don't take his name. He's not even a human being. [laughter] But we cannot compare Christ with Guru Maharaj. He, he's...

Yogeśvara: No, but still, the argument...

Prabhupāda: The argument, nothing. He's to be simply kicked on his face. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: He has no other qualification, this Guru Maharaj. People have become so lower in intelligence that they are dealing with him. You see? They are not even equal to our shoes. You should not utter his name. But Lord Jesus Christ's position is different. We cannot compare with this rascal. He's recognized God's man, Jesus Christ. And what is this rascal?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the Ten Commandments, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that one should not take the name of God in vain. And they argue that when we chant the holy name, they say, "You are chanting, chanting, chanting all the time, but this is taking the name in vain."

Prabhupāda: Why vain? Don't you find difference between you and me? Why it is vain? Don't you find what is the difference between you and me? So I... "Do you think that I am a foolish man, that I am chanting, 'Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa' without any profit? So you can think, because you are a rascal, but I know my business."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: You should reply like that.

Bhagavān: Last night, when you gave him the example that the father is beyond the experience of the child...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: ...at that point, he stopped arguing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And mother is the only evidence. That's all. Similarly, acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet [Cc. Ādi 17.308]. Śāstra says that "What is beyond your experience, you don't argue on that point." You go to the authority and take it. Why you..., should you argue? It is beyond your experience. Therefore you must find out who can give you the experience. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But don't stop there, that "It is beyond my experience; therefore I should not have experience." This is foolishness. If it is beyond your experience, then go to a person who has got experience and take from him. Suppose if I am in this park, I do not know which way to go; it is beyond my experience. Then I ask one gentleman, "Where shall I go?" He'll say, "Please go this way." This is the way. Why should you stop and think others also, that God is beyond his experience also? Why? It may be beyond your experience, but unless you go to a person who has got actually experience, how can you get the experience? [pause]

Bhagavān: He seemed frustrated that he says he's tried, but he hasn't found. He was in India for twenty-five years.

Prabhupāda: Well, the thing is that this, actually, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3] = "Out of millions." But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, we are trying to understand little, little. Otherwise, it is very difficult to understand it. And if there is any understanding of God, that is in this Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, especially in this Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. Others, they do not know. They cannot know. Kṛṣṇa will never reveal to them. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. If you engage your tongue in His service, then God reveals to you. You cannot understand God.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can one remain humble?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: How can one remain humble in executing his devotional service?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he thinks himself that "I am non-entity, helpless," then he can remain. If he thinks, "I can do something. I have got so much intelligence," then he cannot become humble. Just like... [aside:] Don't come very near. Just like child is humble always, because he knows that "I am completely helpless. Unless mother helps me, I am complete..." Therefore, whenever he's in need of something, he cries, "Mother, help me." This is helplessness. Helplessness. Always. Kārpaṇye. This is one of the item of surrender. Unless you think yourself helpless, you cannot surrender. Surrender is complete when you think yourself that you are helpless. "I am helpless, but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He'll save me." This faith also must be there, that "Although I am helpless... Not although I am factually helpless, but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, I have no danger. He'll help me, protect me."

Paramahaṁsa: People often argue that they don't understand how they can have faith if they don't understand God.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: They don't see how they can have faith if they have no knowledge of God. And they argue, "Well, I don't know God. So how can I have faith in Him?"

Prabhupāda: You learn from me. I am your spiritual master. You tell him. You are asking me. Why you are asking me? What is...? Why you are asking me?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, I was just giving an argument that people...

Prabhupāda: No, argument, that's all right. Why you are asking me?

Paramahaṁsa: For knowledge.

Prabhupāda: For knowledge. So take knowledge from me.

Yogeśvara: [to Paramahaṁsa] That's what you tell them.

Prabhupāda: "Otherwise, why you are asking, wasting your time and my time? If you are asking, you take knowledge from me." Is that all right?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If... The same example = Suppose I do not know which way to go. If I ask somebody, it is supposed that he knows. Is it not?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why I shall ask somebody? It is supposed that he knows. Now, when you ask him, then you must take his word. He says, "You go this way," you shall go there. And again, you say, "Why shall I go this way?" "And why, rascal, you come to ask me?" Is it not? You asked me, "Which way I shall go to go to that place?" I say, "You go this way." And if you again say, "Why shall I go this way?" "Then why, rascal, you come to waste my time and your time?" This is the answer. If you ask me, then you take my word. Eh?

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That's it. And if you think that I do not know, then why do you ask me, and waste your time and my time? Therefore śāstra says that "Ask from guru." If you accept somebody as guru, then ask from him. As soon as you ask, the man to whom you ask, he is your guru.

Satsvarūpa: Some people say they don't like to talk to Hare Kṛṣṇa people because we're like that. We always say we know everything about everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we know everything. That's a fact.

Satsvarūpa: They resent it, and they say, "Oh, you people, we can't talk with you."

Prabhupāda: You may resent, but we know everything. That is a fact. [chuckles]

Satsvarūpa: So how do we deal with that attitude, if they're turned away by our...?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He's a rascal. How we can...? We know everything, and he denies. Then what is the use of talking with him and waste your time? Let him know everything. We have nothing..., no business.

Satsvarūpa: We can't compromise and just say that we don't know.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: What does he...

Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can...? You know everything. How you can say, "I don't know"? [laughs]

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You do not know practically that. You must be also a man of knowledge. Otherwise, you cannot say. You cannot be..., falsely say that "Yes, I know." You must know. Then you say. But if you think that you do not know, don't say foolishly like that. Then you'll be slapped. You must know also. So how do you know? The next question will be, "How do you know everything?"

Satsvarūpa: It's not that I am great, but it's the authority of my spiritual master and the śāstras.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is great. So I am talking of what Kṛṣṇa has said. Therefore I am great, I am knowing everything. It is not that I know everything. I do not know anything, but I, I am surrendered to a person who knows everything. Therefore I know everything. I take my knowledge from Him. So you should think how much knowledge you have assimilated. The knowledge is there, guru-kṛṣṇa. Guru is there. Kṛṣṇa is there. So we have to take advantage of guru and Kṛṣṇa, sad-dharma-pṛcchā, ask him, and become man of knowledge. Then you can say. If you simply think that "I have my guru, and there is Kṛṣṇa. Now I am perfect," no. You should ask and know. You must be man of knowledge. Then you can say, "Yes, I know everything." Dīkṣā. Dīkṣā, initiation, dīkṣā. This Sanskrit word, dīkṣā, means divya-jñānaṁ kṣipayati: to ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, "Yes, I know everything." [japa] Actually, you know everything. Just like when I speak, I immediately ask reference from Bhagavad-gītā, and we stop the man's argument. So if you become well conversed with the whole Bhagavad-gītā, then you have full knowledge. There is no need of saying that "I do not know." You'll become full knowledge, man of knowledge. But you must study. [aside:] Who is this man?

Bhagavān: It's his son.

Prabhupāda: Oh, your son? You have one son, one daughter?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is your name?

Devotee: [telling child] Bhakti dāsa.

Child: Bhakti dāsa.

Prabhupāda: Oh! You do not know your name? You ask your father? [laughter] You do not know your name? You are asking your father, "What is my name?"

Child: No, I don't remember.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't remember your name? I...

Bhagavān: We began to call him Bhakti dāsa yesterday. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very good. [laughs] Making a Vaiṣṇava, very nice boy. Very good-looking boy. Don't let him deviate. This is the age to be careful so that he may not deviate. What is his age? Twelve years?

Devotee: Eleven.

Prabhupāda: Eleven. That's all. This is the age. Twelve to fifteen years, the boys become, by bad association, they become rotten. This hellish world is like that. They go to school and become demons.

Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday in your lecture, you mentioned how in this age it's very difficult to remain chaste, or free of...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's all right. [japa] Teach him Sanskrit and English and let him read our books. Then perfect knowledge. He doesn't require to go to school. And so far mathematics and history concerned, everyone knows. Two plus two equal to four, it doesn't require much education. Even illiterate man who has never gone to school, he can also count. Eh? "How much money you are giving me?" He doesn't want to be cheated. No. [japa] So the fact is, God cannot be unknown. If you are actually serious to know God, God can be known. This is no argument, that "God cannot be known."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is putting limitation on Kṛṣṇa, to say that you cannot see.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is putting a limitation on Kṛṣṇa if one says that He cannot be seen.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... Of course, you cannot challenge Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa, if He likes, He can reveal Himself to you. Therefore, you can know God. Just like Kṛṣṇa reveals. He comes and He... [aside:] Don't... He reveals Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. So when man forgets, so He comes, reveals Himself. And He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad-gītā, knowledge about Him. So where is the difficulty? He comes when you forget Him, and He leaves behind Him the knowledge by which you can understand. Where is the difficulty?

Paramahaṁsa: There's a verse in the Bhāgavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: My question is = A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gītā, someone who can never see him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can associate with Kṛṣṇa by reading Bhagavad-gītā. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've said that the Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa's mind.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not different from His mind. Why do you say like that? This is material conception---the soul is different from body, the mind is different from soul. But Kṛṣṇa has no such difference. Therefore He's called absolute. Advaya-jñāna. His mind and Kṛṣṇa are the same. Kṛṣṇa and His name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and His words are the same. This is Kṛṣṇa understanding. Jesus Christ simply said that "Hallowed be Thy name." That means there is name. Now the question is why he did not say or utter the name? Now, there is already name. Why should he utter?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: There is already name, Kṛṣṇa. So why should he utter?

Paramahaṁsa: Is that why Christ didn't utter the name of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: No, he said, "Hallowed be Thy name." "Hallowed be Thy name." So there is name already. That means he gave you chance to find out the name. And as he came to India, so you come to India and you'll get the name.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was helping to lay the foundation for saṅkīrtana movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. This is a chance for others to think, "Hallowed be Thy name." The name is glorified. "So where the name is glorified? Find out."

Bhagavān: I think we can turn around, this way.

Devotee: Let's go up by the river.

Bhagavān: Well, we have to go all the way round the lake to get to the car again.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Nitāi: Did you want to know where that was, "Hallowed be Thy name"?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: Were you asking where that was from?

Prabhupāda: No, you said. Somebody said that it is, Christ said...

Nitāi: That's in what they call the Lord's Prayer, which was given by Christ himself. All the Catholics say that daily.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: The Catholics repeat that prayer daily.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Nitāi: The Lord's Prayer.

Prabhupāda: What is that prayer?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One devotee, he asked to Christ, "How should I pray?"

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever."

Prabhupāda: Very nice prayer. Very nice prayer. [japa] [pause]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is vandanam, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there some gradual development in all those nine processes of devotional service, beginning from hearing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. This chanting and hearing should be in the association of devotees. First of all, one must have faith that chanting is good. Then he should chant in the society of the devotees. Then it will develop. He can chant anywhere. But if he chants alone... There was saṅkīrtana. Bahubhīr militā. Many devotees chanting together, that is called saṅkīrtana. So one, our movement is saṅkīrtana movement; many devotees together would chant the holy name of God. Then it is very quickly successful. Just like a person who comes to our center in the association of the devotees, after few weeks, he also becomes devotee. Quickly. And there are many others, they are seeing that there is a group like this, but because they do not come, they do not understand. Therefore the quick development process is to execute devotional service in the association of devotees, sādhu-saṅga.

'sādhu-saṅga', 'sādhu-saṅga'---sarva-śāstre kaya
lava-mātra sādhu-saṅge sarva-siddhi haya

[Cc. Madhya 22.54]

Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that sādhu-saṅga, association of devotees, is very, very important. Even for a moment if there is association, he immediately comes to the path of perfection. [pause] So if you actually remain a sādhu, devotee, then anyone who will come with your association, he'll be perfect by association. Means this process of perfection will begin immediately.

Paramahaṁsa: Our position in preaching should be to encourage people in all respects to associate with us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: That means sometimes we might have to compromise in certain ways.

Prabhupāda: Why compromise? You don't compromise. Then you associate with him. If you make compromise, then you associate with him. Then gradually you'll also go down. When we..., when we see some person, we do not associate with him, but we give him chance to associate with me. Why you should make compromise? What is the reason? If you know something positively, why should you make compromise? When people come to talk with me, see me, I don't make any compromise. Do I make any compromise?

Devotees: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why shall we make compromise? That gentleman, Mr. Herbert, Gene Herbert, he said that "It has taken eighteen years to write these books." I said, "Still, there are so many mistakes." Immediately I said. And he could not say anything. Do you remember that?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Immediately I said, "Yes, you have labored eighteen years. Still, there are so many mistakes."

Nitāi: Anyone else would have said, "Oh! Very nice."

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Eh? I did not say.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He said that morning, "What can we do, Prabhupāda?" He said, "What can we do? If we do not compromise, we will make enemies."

Prabhupāda: No, you'll not compromise; at the same time, you'll not make enemies. That is tactics. If you make enemies, then what is your tactics? You must speak the truth, at the same time he'll not be displeased. That is tactics. If you can defeat him by your argument, then he'll not be displeased. After all, everyone is human being. If you can find out his defect, why he shall be enemy? Therefore it is said, "You better make a reasonable man an enemy, but don't make a friend fool." Don't make friendship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, better make him an enemy. Because, because he's intelligent, although he's an enemy, he'll not do any harm, because intelligent. But a fool, he may pose himself as friend, and he can do anything which is very harmful.

Paramahaṁsa: So we should be able to see the quality of man we are preaching to.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to make him intelligent. Everyone is fool, mūḍha. Everyone within this material world is supposed to be a fool, because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So he's fool. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Frenchman," "I am this," "I am that." What is the difference? A cat is thinking, "I'm cat." A dog is thinking, "I am dog." So if somebody thinks that, in relationship with the body, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am...", then where is the difference between the cat and the dog? He's thinking himself as this body. Therefore everyone is thinking, at least in this modern world, the so-called nationalism, everyone is thinking, "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "I am Indian," "I am this," "black," "white." So everyone is fool. Is it not? Yes. He's thinking in a way what he is not. Therefore he's a fool. All these big, big political leaders, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, and in Europe, they fought with this consciousness, "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Frenchman." That's all. Even the big, big leaders, they are fools. And what to speak of common men?

Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: In the United States, there are something called minority groups. Minority group means like the Irish or the Negroes, the Jews...

Prabhupāda: They're also fools. Minority fools. They're minority fools.

Yogeśvara: Minority fools?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's thinking, "I am Irishman."

Yogeśvara: Yes, but their point is that "Even if we are spirit soul, we are still being exploited because we are a small number. So we must band together to protect ourselves."

Prabhupāda: You are exploited always. Why do you blame this man or that man? You are being exploited by māyā. Where is your position of freedom?

Yogeśvara: They say, "Well, māyā we cannot fight, but we can fight the government."

Prabhupāda: Why should you fight? If you cannot... Suppose you cannot... Can you fight with death? Māyā, māyā has imposed upon you death. So fight with māyā, that there will be no death. That you cannot do. So you are always, what is called, defeated. That is your position. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So best thing is surrender to Kṛṣṇa for protection. That is wanted. We don't think "minority." Suppose... Hare Kṛṣṇa people, how many there are in the Paris city? How many?

Yogeśvara: Seventy, eighty.

Prabhupāda: So we are not sorry that minority. Where is the...? Insignificant. Don't talk of minority. But we are not sorry. Minority, majority, all these are foolishness. The whole platform is mistaken. [pause] Rūpa Gosvāmī was a minister. He was in the majority. But voluntarily he accepted minority. He went to Vṛndāvana and living alone, underneath a tree. He was enjoying so much honor. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīm. His associates were big, big zamindars, big businessmen, politicians. Because he's minister. But he preferred to resign that post and become a minority, to live alone in Vṛndāvana underneath a tree. Why he preferred this? And remaining there alone, he has given you the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. So we have to see how much service we are going to give Kṛṣṇa. This "minority," "majority," these are all material conception of life. If you can give major service to Kṛṣṇa, that is your success of life. I started this movement alone, minority. Is it not?

Yogeśvara: Yes, one.

Prabhupāda: One only; less than minority. [laughter] The "minority," "majority," these are material conception. And spiritual is how much you are giving service to Kṛṣṇa. That is considered. That is to be taken into consideration. [pause] Kṛṣṇa says Himself, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3] = "Out of millions and millions of people, one may understand Me." So if I have turned so many people to understand Kṛṣṇa, so that is service. At least, they are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...in winter in December, when I was going to the park, Regents Park, all the waters, frozen like stone, and with this stick I was pushing, [makes sound imitation] tung, tung, like that. But I marked it that underneath the tree, there was no frozening. The water was there. Just like here is a tree. Just below the tree, there was water, and all around, frozen. The swans were walking on the... But on that place, they were floating. [japa] [pause]

Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists say that the life, life first came from the water. They say, the scientists say, that life first came from water. In the beginning, there were one-celled creatures that were formed from chemicals in the water.

Prabhupāda: That we also say, pralaya-payodhi-jale. Because the whole planet was submerged in water, so there was life in water---aquatics, fishes. That is not a very new thing. We know it.

Paramahaṁsa: I have a question about evolution. Our position is that all the species have been established by Kṛṣṇa, even before creation. But yet, in the creation, it comes about through an evolutionary process?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So the fact that evolution is existing, it's a fact. But it does not exist independent of the fact that Kṛṣṇa created it and He established it. It's not something that developed independently.

Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.

Bhagavān: When Brahmā creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates?

Prabhupāda: Brahmā is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution?

Bhagavān: Yeah. [to Paramahaṁsa] So you understand? Brahmā is created first. So it's not that we started from one-celled animals and worked up to Brahmā.

Satsvarūpa: But on a particular planet is it like that?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Satsvarūpa: Are..., are there sophisticated...

Prabhupāda: In the material world.

Satsvarūpa: The human beings are there from the very beginning on the earth too?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. They're... Beings are already there, everywhere.

Satsvarūpa: But you said it was all submerged in water.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But he's there. Suppose if you live within the water, does it mean that you are not existing?

Satsvarūpa: No, but generally, human beings...

Bhagavān: Human species.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagavān: Does the human species come with the gradual evolution, or is the human species created first?

Prabhupāda: No, in the creation, according to your karma. As you stopped your activities in the last creation, it is, it is just like... It is called suptottitha-nyāya: "A man is sleeping, and when he's awakened, he immediately remembers, 'What I have to do.' " So the annihilation means all living entities sleeping, and as soon as there is creation, again they begin from the point where they last lost their life. That's it. It is the same example. Just when you go to sleep, you have a standard of thinking, and as soon as you are awakened, the same standard of thinking again begins. From the point where you slept and when awakened, you again begin from that point. It is like that.

Satsvarūpa: So when Lord Brahmā created this planet, did he immediately put all the species here?

Prabhupāda: No, why immediately? It doesn't matter, immediately. But the living entities come to their new formation of life in that way.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in your spiritual master's commentary on Brahma-saṁhitā, he states that within the core of the heart there is some desire, and that according to that desire, one takes a body in the next creation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So within the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu... Of course, material nature is not covering the con..., the sleeping souls, is it?

Prabhupāda: Why you bring Vi...? You are talking of living entities. Why do you bring Viṣṇu?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So the point, then, is that means one can have a conditioned desire or a material desire even without being in the material world.

Prabhupāda: He is already... That I have already explained. Suptottitha-nyāya. In the morning, as soon as you get up, you remember that you have to do so many things. That means it was already there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Right. Is that just like the impersonalists? They go up into the brahma-jyotir, but they have desire, so they have to come back down.

Prabhupāda: No, this is not going to the brahma-jyotir. Those who... Brahma-jyotir, they do not come in that way. They come in their own frustration.

Yogeśvara: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, the living entities, when they come out of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, they, they...

Prabhupāda: In Mahā-Viṣṇu's body they simply rest during the annihilation. That's all.

Yogeśvara: But then during the creation, the scientists say, in the beginning there was no human life on this planet.

Prabhupāda: The scientists are rascals. What they know? There was no human being? Why not human being? The Brahmā is human being. Then you reject the Vedic conclusion. You take this rascal scientist's conclusion.

Yogeśvara: No, of course not.

Prabhupāda: Then how you can say?

Yogeśvara: But where were those spirit souls who were going to take the form of a human being before the human species became manifested?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the body of Viṣṇu.

Bhagavān: That's just on this planet. But on other planets there's human species.

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that?

Bhagavān: No. His argument is that scientists say that at the beginning there may have been only lesser-developed forms of life.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that.

Bhagavān: Was there always humans on this planet?

Prabhupāda: We say the highest developed, Brahmā. He's a sub-creator. He's not a lesser intelligent. He's as good as God.

Yogeśvara: But on this planet, let us say, for example...

Prabhupāda: On this planet, any planet. That is the system.

Satsvarūpa: This planet, from the very beginning, there were human beings.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: On this planet, from the very begin...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmā is there. The Brahmā created so many sons. The Kumāras came out. The Rudra came out. He gradually created.

Nitāi: So actually, the creation goes just the other way.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: First of all Brahmā, the greatest living being, and then...

Prabhupāda: No. Creation is simultaneously. The Brahmā then created ants and birds and beasts and everything. It is all simultaneous. [aside:] Something is attached with my cloth, hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: These scientists are very great rascals. We should defeat them and save the people from...

Prabhupāda: There is something.

Nitāi: In your shoe?

Prabhupāda: No, in the cloth.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, you're the only one who has the courage to do that today.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: You're the only one that has the courage to defeat these rascals. Everyone else is surrendering to them.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because I know on the background there is Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So all your endeavors are perfect. Jaya.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!

[getting into car]

Prabhupāda: Openly, become. And you are all rascals, demons, the scientists, big, big scientists, come. And they tolerate. [laughs] [end]