Morning Walk , Paris , 1974-06-09
Bhagavān: ...too simple.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they do not take it. Just like homeopathic medicine. You know homeopathic medicine?
Bhagavān: Oh, homeopathic medicine.
Prabhupāda: Yes, simply water. So they do not like to take it. Actually, they do not want God; they want māyā. Otherwise, if anyone wants God, Kṛṣṇa, there is no difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mām evaiśyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.68]. Four things. "Just always think of Me," man-manā. Mad-bhaktaḥ: "Just become My devotee." Mad-yājī: "You worship Me and offer your obeisances unto Me. If you do simply these four things, then you are coming back to Me without any doubt." These four things. But they cannot do it or will not do it. Otherwise, very simple. We are thinking of something always. Simply we have to replace Kṛṣṇa. No. They'll think so many other things except Kṛṣṇa. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, it is not at all difficult. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They'll make a program = "Thoughtlessness." That lady was...
Bhagavān: She'd become thoughtless.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are disgusted with this material thought, therefore they want to make it zero. But that is not possible. You must think of something. So they have no spiritual idea. They do not know what is spiritual thinking. They think that "Make it zero. These thoughts, let us make it zero." Just like a diseased man, suffering for..., from the very beginning of his life. Then, if somebody suggests that "When you'll be cured, you'll very nicely eat, nicely walk and nicely think," so he's coming to the stage of diseased condition, "Again thinking? Again eating? Again lying down on bed? Then what is the difference? No, no. It must be zero = no eating, no sleeping, no bedding, nothing." He's thinking like that. Because he has got bad experience of his diseased condition, he thinks, "Again if there is eating, again if there is walking, then how it can be cured?" He cannot think of. These rascals, because they have no idea what is spiritual thinking, they want to make this thinking zero only. That's all. Śūnyavādī. They are called śūnyavādī, nirvāṇa, Buddhist philosophy. "Your body is subjected to pains and pleasure, to dismantle this body." This is Buddha philosophy. "Make it zero. There will be no more pains and pleasure." "You have got some trouble in the eyes? Pluck it out." He does not know how to cure it. He simply knows, "Pluck it out." This is their philosophy. Asatyere satya kari māni, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song.
asatyere satya kari māni
"Being puffed up by false ego, I am..., I have taken untruth as truth. And when somebody speaks about truth, I take it as untruth." Asatyere satya kare māni. [japa] [aside:] You should cover it. Why cover?
Yogeśvara: There's a path that leads to the lake here.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Eh?
Bhagavān: There's not enough room for everyone there.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Bhagavān: There's a small path, but it's not very big. We can continue around this way.
[break] ...complicated solution to the problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. These rascals, they do not know that our process is most difficult. Because as soon as ask them that "Give up meat-eating," it is very difficult task for them. And actually, it is very difficult for them. You see? That gentleman in Geneva, as long as I was talking about meat-eating, he became little disgusted.
Satsvarūpa: He said, "Why don't we speak of higher principles?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because this is the beginning of higher principles. "No, no, this may let... Let it remain. Let us go to the higher principles." The rascal does not know that you cannot go without learning A-B-C-D, how you can ask for passing M.A. examination? But "No, I do not know A-B-C-D, but let me go for passing M.A. examination." You see? This is A-B-C-D, that yeṣām anta gatam... [Bg. 7.28] Any sinful man, he cannot understand about God. It is not possible. Paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. But without being pavitra, they want to go to the platform of understanding God.
Yogeśvara: Just like that Gene Herbert.
Yogeśvara: Just like that Sanskritist in Geneva.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "I..., I am smoking. I do not like to give it up." [laughter] You see?
Bhagavān: I think from here we have to walk on the sidewalk. There may be cars coming.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: Let Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: It is very, very difficult for them. To give up intoxication, especially in the Western countries... That Lord Zetland, Marquis of Zetland, when one of my Godbrother went to London for preaching, so Lord Zetland said, "Can you make me a brāhmaṇa?" And then he said, "Yes, why not? You have to give up these things = no illicit sex, no intoxication." He said, "Oh, it is impossible. For us, it is impossible." So actually, these four prohibitory rules is impossible for these rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They would rather die than give them up, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Even our men, after so much training, they're also falling down. It is so difficult thing. Actually, it is the most difficult thing.
Bhagavān: The path down at the lake very big?
Bhagavān: Would you like to walk down by the lake, or is this...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is all right. In India, also, although they are vegetarian, they cannot give up smoking even bīḍī. They cannot give up chewing pān. You see? This is very difficult task. I was thinking when I first came that as soon as I propose these things, because I have got experience that Lord Zetland said, "It is impossible," what they..., they'll accept? And I'll have to go back again. But I did not make any compromise. Just like other rascal yogīs and svāmīs, they say, "Yes, yes. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever... You practice nose-pressing, that's all. And give me my fees. Then you'll learn [indistinct]." This is not possible.
Bhagavān: When you had your talk several years ago with the professor in Russia, he made the point, when you were discussing about the regulative principles, that if you follow these principles, then your life becomes very simple, and if you don't follow these principles, life becomes very complicated. He appreciated that one point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will appreciate. Our... Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Without anartha-nivṛtti... Anartha-nivṛtti means stopping all unwanted things. Anartha. Anartha means which does not give us any profit, and unnecessarily we are accustomed. Suppose we do not take any intoxicant. So what is our inconvenience? But people are spending millions and millions of dollars only for smoking. Therefore it is useless, anartha. But they cannot give it up. And condition is that without anartha-nivṛtti, there cannot be attachment for God.
tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis
athāsaktis tato bhāva...
sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ
[Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]
These are the steps. So after anartha-nivṛtti, one is firmly fixed up in devotional service. And if the anarthas are disturbing him, then he's not fixed up. He'll fall down. He'll fall down. That risk is already there. So these people are so much accustomed to this anartha, and they cannot give it up.
Bhagavān: What is the best way to gradually get them detached?
Bhagavān: The best way to gradually get them detached?
Prabhupāda: Bhajana-kriyā. Therefore bhajana-kriyā, sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], association with devotees and stick to the devotional program. Just like devotional program we have got. Bhajana-kriyā. This is called bhajana-kriyā. One cannot be slack in the process of devotional service. Then it will be... Vidhi-mārga, the regulative principles = chant sixteen rounds, rise early in the morning, have maṅgala-ārātrika, read books, take your bath---these are the process. Bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana means devotional service, and kriyā... The yogīs, they call kriyā-yoga. So this lake is dirty water, eh?
Prabhupāda: Drain water.
Bhagavān: Generally, all these rivers everywhere now are all contaminated.
Prabhupāda: That means the mode of civilization is so nice that everything is becoming contaminated. And why not the people? They're also contaminated.
Bhagavān: That is called madness when they...
Bhagavān: Madness when they keep creating things which are hurting them, but they don't stop.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā. Māyā is very strong.
Bhagavān: We can go down this way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [japa] [break] ...different countries, they are very careful. When foreigners come, if they bring some fruit, "No, no. You cannot take it within." And they keep the lakes contaminated. You cannot bring in one fruit, but you can keep the whole lake contaminated. This is their intelligence. Why they are contaminating? Eh?
Bhagavān: All the factories.
Prabhupāda: Their very business is contaminated, factories. [japa] [break] Even the sea has become contaminated.
Bhagavān: The sea?
Prabhupāda: In Long Island and those places, if you go, the sea, the sea is so dirty.
Nitāi: In New York, they're anticipating a crisis, because for many years they've been taking all their trash and rubbish and putting it out in the sea. And now that whole part of the sea is coming in towards land, very, very contaminated.
Bhagavān: Yes. The article said that they dump their garbage in a certain area, and nothing can grow there except the most poisonous bacteria. And now that whole business is moving back towards the population. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: Reaction. Everything... Yajñārthe karmaṇo yatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Whatever you do, you are bound up by the reaction. That is nature's law. [break] ...and occasionally there will be big war, and they'll kill themselves. That's all. Now they are killing animals. That is a separate from human being. But time will come, the human beings, they will kill themselves, one another. Not only one, two, but wholesale. Daily, millions or thousands will be killed. They want to avoid war. For that reason, they invented the United Nation. Eh?
Prabhupāda: So why they want to avoid war? What is the reason?
Bhagavān: For avoiding war?
Bhagavān: They want to maintain their pleasure.
Prabhupāda: [laughs] Why encroach upon others' pleasure? Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mantra 1]. Īśopaniṣad says, "Don't encroach upon others' pleasure."
Bhagavān: Because they have no spiritual idea or spiritual pleasure, they can never be satisfied. So they're always envious.
Prabhupāda: So there is no coconut tree, mango tree, banana tree? Huh? These are all useless tree, simply for becoming fuel, that's all. They're also condemned. Yes. Sinful trees. There are pious trees and sinful trees. [japa] [pause] We have to go straight? [pause] This park is bigger than that Golden Gate Park?
Bhagavān: Oh, yeah.
Prabhupāda: Eh? [pause]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says that "One who is always active within is very dear to Me." Does this mean we should struggle to keep our minds engaged all the time in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: Active within? Active within?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Active within."
Prabhupāda: What is that, "active within"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is in the Third Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: "Active within." What is that "active within"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Thinking of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is very good. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. Yes. We should be always active in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, within or without. That is wanted. Antar bahiḥ.
sarvāvasthāṁ gato 'pi vā
yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ
sa bāhya abhyantaram...
Bāhya means external, and abhyantaram means internal. So we should be active both, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, externally and internally. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, externally hearing and chanting, and smaraṇam, internally smaraṇam, thinking---these are the process of bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. [japa] [break] If somebody asks, "Give me one picture," and I ask my secretary---"There is no picture." [laughter]
Satsvarūpa: Yogeśvara is going to give me a whole collection.
Bhagavān: So we can walk to the car through here. Will there come a time when people will become disgusted with the scientists and reject them?
Prabhupāda: No. They'll more and more forget Kṛṣṇa---this is Kali-yuga---on account of these blind leaders. Don't you see that this rascal Darwin's theory, that is very much appreciated? Any movement which tries to get out God, very much appreciated. That is very much appreciated. That is scientific. "You forget God," that is scientific. And as soon as you speak of God, "You are primitive, old type," that's all. "You are conservative." That another rascal, Allen Ginsberg, he was speaking, "Swāmījī, you are very conservative." [japa] [pause] [break]
Bhagavān: ...discuss that the fact that when people die in different modes of nature, how they come back, and you say that people die in the mode of passion, they come back in human life; if they die in the mode of ignorance, they come back in demonic species of life. So the people today seem to be... Is it that they'll all come back as animals in their next life?
Bhagavān: How does a person come back in... What merits a person coming back in human life? It seems like an elevated birth. How does mode of passion give one the opportunity of human life?
Prabhupāda: Generally, people are mixed, rajas-tamas. So human life also, they're animals' life. They cannot understand anything. Just like when we speak of "Don't eat meat," they become angry. So what is this human life? It is simply in the form of human life. They give example that "There are many animals, they eat flesh. Therefore why we shall not eat?" The other day, the man... I, "You are not animal." Then he was stopped. He thinks that he's human being, but he wants to be eat like animal. So what kind of human being he is? Just see. He is proud to become human being, but he wants to behave like animal. [japa] Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has taken all these people as paśu. Sei paśu baḍo durācāra. He has not said that he's human being.
vidyā-kule ki koribe tāra
Vidyā-kule ki koribe tāra. Sei paśu baḍo durācāra. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra. Bhāgavata says, "They're not human being." Śva, dog; viḍ-varāha, hogs, stool-eating hogs; śva-viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, camel. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Anyone who is accepting this body as self, he's animal.
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
Go-khara. Go means cow, and khara means ass. Animal life.