Room Conversation with Biochemist Dr. Sallaz , Geneva , 1974-06-04
Dr. Sallaz: I'm still working, because I have to entertain with money. [laughs] In our world you cannot do anything without money. But what may interest you it is that we have several member who are looking for truth, for the really truth, and trying to attain it and to follow it. And for this reason, it is said to go only according the scientific organization officials, so on, we went in quite revolutionary ways. For instance, we took all biology coming from the energetic point of view, which is quite different. Not with the microscope, not with chemical analysis, but with the thinking that everything is only immaterial reaction. And with this we achieved extraordinary result. So we have looked at the official world as completely fooled.
Yogeśvara: [to Prabhupāda] Are you able to understand when he speaks? I can repeat if you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes, will come here.
Dr. Sallaz: I believe on this point of view. [speaks in French with Yogeśvara, who tells him that he will explain to Prabhupāda]
Yogeśvara: [with Dr. Sallaz interjecting explanations throughout] He explains that the group that he is heading up is a little bit revolutionary in the biological field. Instead of taking biology from the point of view of chemical, microscopic analysis, they take biology from the point of view of energetic, that is to say, everything being energy, stemming from some source, that everything is energy.
Prabhupāda: This is nice. Actually, it is so.
Dr. Sallaz: And our last official result is, of course, a scandal for the orthodox world. We did transmute matter from one to another. We achieved transmutation like alchemists in the Middle Age, you see. And a single element which is called iron, we make from it chrome, which is another single element. And it is so revolutionary that we had the experimentation made completely not from our side but from official organization in France. [French with Yogeśvara]
Yogeśvara: What he says is that the final conclusion of their research work has been...
Dr. Sallaz: One of them.
Yogeśvara: One of their conclusions has been to be able to make one element to change into another element. They were able to take iron and transform it into chrome by chemical process, almost like alchemy, he says. And this was very startling for the scientific world.
Dr. Sallaz: Result. Result, only with physical heat, eight hundred, and pressure, only this. No laser, no atomic energy, nothing at all. Simply by natural measures.
Prabhupāda: We can give you one information that metals like bell metal... Bell metal is combination of...? What is called? Tin? Tin? What is another name of tin?
Prabhupāda: Anyway, tin and copper and mercury, if you can mix, it will become gold.
Dr. Sallaz: I'm sure it is possible...
Yogeśvara: He says he's sure that is possible.
Dr. Sallaz: I'm sure it is possible from what we have seen and made. But it is not of great interest to make gold. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: No, we are interested. [laughter] We want gold for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is paying us. We are simply selling our books. That's all. Nobody paying us, no government, no..., that "You take so many million dollars for spreading Kṛṣṇa..." Nobody. Therefore we require some gold. So biology, what is the basic principle of biology?
Yogeśvara: Do you understand his question?
Dr. Sallaz: Yes. Le principe, c'est la vie, life. And what is life? It is energy, speaking in European language.
Prabhupāda: Life, what is this life?
Yogeśvara: He says it is energy, life is energy.
Dr. Sallaz: Life is immaterial.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whose energy? Whose energy? Wherefrom the energy comes?
Dr. Sallaz: From very, very high up.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. It is... This matter is also energy, and life is also energy. So according to Bhagavad-gītā this life, or the living being, is superior energy, and the matter is inferior energy. So this living being is combination of the superior and inferior energy. But the superior energy is not matter. It is spirit.
Dr. Sallaz: Exactly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And it is the... Both the energy are coming from God.
Dr. Sallaz: Exactly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our study. So the living energy, the spirit soul, it has got a formation, formation, form. That is also stated in the śāstras, that one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. Hair, the point, hair. [Yogeśvara translates measurement into French] One ten-thousandth part of the... The exact version is keśāgra. Keśa means hair, and agra means the top. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9]. So that point, you divide into hundred, and take again one part of it, and again divide into hundred. That means you divide the top of the hair into ten thousand part, and then that one part is the magnitude of the soul, spiritual energy. That spiritual energy is within you, within me, within the ant or within the elephant. So we are living entities. And the body is inferior energy at the present moment. In the material world the body is covering. Just like you are covered by the coat. [Yogeśvara translates]
Dr. Sallaz: No, you see, we have tried with some of our members, some of whom are very high in spiritual position, outside of this world. We have tried to look, to reach for the old truth in the very old knowledges of humanity. We have tried this with Indian knowledges. We have tried this with Chinese knowledges. We have tried this with Mexican knowledges. We have tried it everywhere. And we have found that everywhere there is, when you go deep enough, the same truth.
Yogeśvara: He says among their members, many of them are spiritually inclined. So they have investigated the ancient scriptures from China and Mexico, all over the world, and they found that if you go down far enough in the philosophy, it is the same truth.
Prabhupāda: Yes, truth is for everyone---if it is truth. Truth cannot be different. Chinese truth is different from Indian truth---that cannot be. Truth is the truth, provided it is truth. You take something myth as truth, that is different thing. So the truth is that this body is formed on the basis of that spiritual spark. That is the truth. [Yogeśvara translates]
Dr. Sallaz: For our opinion, scientific knowledges, they speak about the genetic code, and for us, the genetic code is very simple, and we have prepared a revolution, for instance, in the genetic questions in replacing the thousand of books of explanation, scientific, with a single truth, and this truth explains all the genetic code, very simple, because we... [break]
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the energy comes?
Dr. Sallaz: From where it comes, our poor human knowledge cannot gain something precise about it. We must believe it---it comes from very high---but to explain it scientifically is completely foolish. That is our opinion. And further, as I said to you when looked at everywhere, if I take India, explain it coming here, that... I received it about ten or twelve years ago. That is what the Christians would speak about, a mystery, something extraordinary. I received from a holy man in India, with which I was corresponding from time to time. Without asking, I received a big book in Sanskrit. I could not understand a word about it. Well, I put it aside preciously...
Prabhupāda: What is that book?
Dr. Sallaz: It is only one year ago.
Prabhupāda: No, what is that book?
Dr. Sallaz: It was the Āyurvedic collection. The old Āyurvedic medicine. This was this book. And I learned about it only one year ago, because a professor of Sanskrit from India had it come from India to Europe, and he's in Paris, I believe. He was a professor of Sanskrit. And showed this book. And he said, "It is marvelous. You cannot find it anymore. It is the old Āyurvedic medicine." And this I had for ten years without knowing why.
Prabhupāda: So we are very pleased that you are accepting that the life comes... Life is energy. Now, which is...
Dr. Sallaz: It is a name, energy. We give it a name. It is much higher.
Prabhupāda: No, it is energy, exactly the name. Because we say prakṛti. Prakṛti means energy, nature. Nature. Just like it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām [Bg. 7.5]. [aside:] You find out this verse. [Yogeśvara translates]
Dr. Sallaz: Our aim. We are looking about... The state of the world is going down since thirty years, I said. With pollution, with strengths, with power, with everything, the world is going down, going to the catastrophe. And there is only one possibility to save it. It is the question of spiritual revolution. Without a spiritual revolution, between twenty, twenty-five year, the world is finished, all the world of which people are so proud.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Dr. Sallaz: And this we are doing everything in our power to prepare and to do what we can to prepare this spiritual revolution. It is the thing we have to do today to save the world. Without spiritual revolution, there is no possibility to save the world. It is going down definitely, for this earth. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So we have started this movement, spiritual revolution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So why don't you cooperate with us?
Dr. Sallaz: Oh, you see we are doing in our field everything we can, and we are preparing to bring this special revolution. We have to bring to light all the old knowledges, the real spiritual knowledges. And this is what we are preparing. And it will take one or two years more until everything is prepared, can be shown.
Prabhupāda: You have studied Bhagavad-gītā?
Dr. Sallaz: Pardon?
Yogeśvara = [French with Dr. Sallez]
Dr. Sallaz: Some. Some of the members know it perfectly. I do not.
Prabhupāda: So you read that = energy, two energies, how they are explained. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ.
Dr. Sallaz: You see some of members are... [French]
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is in the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, text numbers four and five.
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
Translation = "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego---altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies."
Prabhupāda: This is material energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalaḥ, explain that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the material energies---earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego---these energies, they come from Kṛṣṇa. In other words, we are speaking of energy. There is an origin to the energy. We always have an experience. Just like there is sunshine here, but the sun, origin, is millions of miles away. So in the same way these energies also have origin. It's not that they are just existing without some source. And Kṛṣṇa is describing here in the Seventh Chapter---this is called "Knowledge of the Absolute"---how these energies are related to Him. Now, in the material world it's described that there are two energies. This is called bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā, inferior energy. This will be described in the next verse. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām [Bg. 7.5]. Now, this is describing the superior energy, or the parām, the parāṁ prakṛti. And this is described, "Besides this inferior nature," which is this earth, air, water, fire, ether, "O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine which are all the living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe." So this earth, air, water, fire and ether... Just like your body, it is being sustained by the soul. And as soon as the soul leaves the body, then, of course, the earth, air, water, fire and ether, it is no longer sustained in this fashion. It merges into the various elements or energies as such. And in this way, we can understand that the material world is made up of two energies, as my spiritual master said = the inferior energy, or this aparā-prakṛti, earth, air, water, fire, ether, etc., and the superior energy, or the living force. So the point is that the life force does not come from a combination of earth, air, water, fire, ether. It is separate. That is a superior energy. And on this point we agree. Now, we have to find out what is the source of both the superior and inferior material energies, or what is God. So if there is a spiritual evolution.
Prabhupāda: And that is spiritual energy. That is spiritual energy. When we find out the source of these two energies, that the beginning of spiritual life, or spiritual understanding.
Dr. Sallaz: And, Your Holiness, you know, some of our members know this perfectly, Bhagavad-gītā and all the holy scriptures, ancient holy scriptures, and all the others too, and have studied them for years, trying to look for truth. I am not in this stage, and I'm if you.
Prabhupāda: But truth is there, explained. Truth is there = Kṛṣṇa. From Him, the energies are coming. He is the Absolute Truth. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth, satyam. Then Bhāgavata explains, paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. So the Supreme Truth is there within our understanding. But people do not know it. Therefore spiritual revolution means the people should understand what is the Supreme Truth, and then mold their character and activities according to that relationship. Then that is success of human life.
Dr. Sallaz: And I can say to you, we are making a very..., preparing, some of our members, a very important work, which is explanation from the medical point of view of all the genetic code, which is in science something absolutely terrific, plenty, thousand of books and so on.
Yogeśvara: What is your explanation of the genetic codes?
Dr. Sallaz: [explains in French]
Yogeśvara: He says... Very interesting. He says one of the conclusions that they have arrived at is that despite all of your research work, despite all of your scientific studies, if you don't have a simple spirit of inquiry, you won't be able to understand the codes of life. He says the genetic codes, actually, it is a great secret, a mystery, which they are trying to prepare for general understanding, and that secret is that you must be of a simple, humble spirit in order to understand the mysteries of life.
Dr. Sallaz: You must try to look for truth, and when you look for truth, you see very extraordinary and simple solution explaining everything for the scientific men. But the time is not right to give it to them. A little later, yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You spoke of a destruction. You said that without a spiritual revolution, there would be some type of destruction. What exactly do you think of as destruction? What do you think of when you speak of destruction?
Dr. Sallaz: Oh, the world will be dead.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. In the Bhagavad-gītā we have information that the living force, or the soul, is neither born and neither it dies.
Dr. Sallaz: Ah, yes. I meant this world. Matter is the earth. Be careful. I don't mean life in general...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now, this is the point that my spiritual master is bringing out, that the material energy is inferior, and in order to have a spiritual revolution you have to understand the superior energy, which is eternal, without birth and without death. So, of course, there is no question of destruction for the soul.
Dr. Sallaz: Destruction in our occidental language, and practically, which is not yours.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Destruction in simple terms, just as we know something has a beginning and something has an end. That is destruction. So in Vedic terms that which has a beginning and has an end is called material, and that which has no beginning and no end, but is existing nonetheless, that is called spiritual, or superior energy.
Dr. Sallaz: Of course. This cannot be destroyed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That cannot be destroyed.
Dr. Sallaz: That cannot be destroyed. It can disappear from the living people, Christian or other of this world, but not at all.
Prabhupāda: Then what do you mean by spiritual revolution?
Dr. Sallaz: It is to see, to look for the real truth, the simple truth. The very simple truth. And to abandon our way of life aiming only for money, power and material things; to go back to simple living and especially to living with up.
Prabhupāda: Living with?
Yogeśvara: Living with higher thoughts.
Prabhupāda: Then higher thoughts... Is there any definition of the higher thoughts?
Dr. Sallaz: [French]
Yogeśvara: He says humanly it is impossible to understand it.
Dr. Sallaz: We can feel it, we can believe it, but we cannot explain it.
Prabhupāda: No, if there is explanation by a person who is not a human being, say, God...
Dr. Sallaz: Yes, we say God.
Prabhupāda: ...then why should you not take it?
Yogeśvara: [French, explaining]
Dr. Sallaz: We'll accept. [French]
Yogeśvara: He said if it were presented, he would accept it and try to promote it.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] Just find out this verse, Eighth Chapter, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Find out the index.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is."
Dr. Sallaz: I am quite agree. And we do all in our center agree with it.
Prabhupāda: So then, the first of all, we have to understand what is our constitutional position. We are superior---we, living entity---we are superior energy, eternal. And after annihilation of this body, I, the spirit soul, superior energy, am not annihilated. I accept another body, material body. And there are varieties of body, 8,400,000. [Yogeśvara translates]
Dr. Sallaz: And on this point of view, when some people are going very badly wrong with us---of course, for us it is like air---but we say, "Poor people, what about their karma?" That is how we look it, "What about their karma?" It is a pity for them that they do so wrong, because they will have to pay for it. That is all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "pay for it" means he has got this chance of human body. Now he will have to accept lower-grade animal body.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says that at least on these points we are in agreement.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the real inconvenience is that I am eternal. I am now put into such condition that I have to change my body, and there is risk of getting degraded body. Therefore my problem is that---I am put into this condition, repetition of change of body---to get out of it---that is spiritual life---and transfer myself there. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Just like we are in this material nature. If we transfer to that spiritual nature, then there is no more this problem, getting this body, again annihilate, again get another body, again annihilate. This problem is solved. And that is spiritual life.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] So he says they completely accept that there is a superior energy which can be attained.
Prabhupāda: So therefore human activities should be dovetailed for going back to home, back to Godhead. That is spiritual movement.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He said this is also their idea. This is their point.
Prabhupāda: We are giving this idea in practical form. Why not cooperate with us?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says first of all, so far as cooperation is concerned, he is just one man. He is the president. Although he is the president, still, he is only one man, and he can only speak in terms of cooperating with the spiritual movement among the more enlightened members of his group.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required, because if the enlightened men of the society does something, others will follow. It is not that the general mass of people has to be educated. They will be automatically educated. They will follow. If the enlightened man is living in such a way that he is going to be transferred to the spiritual world, then others will follow. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. At least, there must be a class of men, ideal men, that they are preparing themselves for transferring to the spiritual world. Then people will see that "Here is the ideal man," and they will try to follow.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers]
Prabhupāda: But if people see that "He is also like us. He is also drinking, he is also eating meat, and he is also having illicit sex," then where is the ideal man? Everyone is implicated with these things, sinful life.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He said if we look at... He says he knows about Guru Maharaj-ji. He says he has so many people following him. The only conclusion that we can have is that there are many, many people who are looking for spiritual life.
Dr. Sallaz: And they took everything they can find. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. People, especially in the Western world, they are actually looking after some spiritual emancipation, but they think that from India... Actually, that is a fact. Therefore, any rascal comes, they go round him. But why the Western people, those who are on the top of educational and social position, they try to understand what is spirit life and follow them, and place an ideal life so that others may follow?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] Some of his members, some friends, were even visitors at the temples at Benares.
Prabhupāda: That is as a tourist, but that is not understanding of spiritual life.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French]
Dr. Sallaz: I don't speak of tourist. I speak of a holy man. Be careful = not a tourist. Not as a tourists. As a man having attained very high in truth, and for this reason, and not as a tourist. He was at the time crowded like you.
Prabhupāda: Holy man means...
Dr. Sallaz: [French]
Prabhupāda: The real purpose of going to holy places is to find out there the holy man and take knowledge from him. That is real going to the holy places of pilgrimage.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says that his members who have gone to India, they themselves are considered to be holy men.
Dr. Sallaz: And he went not there as tourist or to inquire. He went to speak, to try to speak about the truth, not about..., for questions.
Prabhupāda: So some of you have gone. So what truth you have seen? That is the... What is the truth? What you have learned about the truth?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] That we must continue to look for it.
Prabhupāda: But that is... They have not looked. Or they have not found out.
Dr. Sallaz: To try to reach it, if you like.
Prabhupāda: They are trying. They are trying, but they have not reached. [French]
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says he doesn't pretend to have found it.
Prabhupāda: That's it. But then the next step is just to now find it. Here is the truth, Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. So why don't you accept this truth? If you are actually trying to find out the truth, here is the truth. It is accepted by all learned scholars and ācāryas of India = the Supreme Absolute Truth is Kṛṣṇa. So why don't you study Kṛṣṇa?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says that's the kind of question that you would have to ask his members.
Prabhupāda: I can ask the members. I can talk with the members. If they are actually trying to find out the truth, then I can present them the truth.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says that perhaps his members won't think that they need this kind of truth.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the searching after truth? [laughs] It is hypocrisy.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] Maybe they already know. Maybe they already know the truth.
Prabhupāda: Then what is that truth? Let us know.
Dr. Sallaz: I am sure that some of them knows perfectly well all the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yogeśvara: [questions in French; Dr. Sallaz answers]
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yogeśvara: He says that you don't really need proof to convince anyone. Why should he have to show proof that you know the answer...
Prabhupāda: No, if you are searching after truth... Suppose if you are searching after gold, and if I give you gold, why don't you accept it?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says if someone has it already... He says they would not accept it. Apparently his position is that by their research, they have discovered the truth.
Prabhupāda: What is that truth?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says it's the same truth that we are following.
Prabhupāda: Well, same truth, this is vague. But what is the tangible presentation of the truth?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says he can't explain.
Prabhupāda: We can explain it. Why does he not take from us? We can explain it.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers]
Prabhupāda: If he knows truth, let him explain. If he does not know, take from us.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French]
Dr. Sallaz: I do not. Be careful. I am trying to understand. I do not. I don't say to you I know the truth. Not at all. I hope to know...
Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take truth from us?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says because he already has a guru, and he already has everything he needs.
Prabhupāda: But your guru has not given you the truth. You do not know.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says that the guru doesn't give the truth just like that. He says it's something that you have to work for little by little.
Prabhupāda: Then he does not know what is truth. We can give truth. Just like I give you some money, "Here, take this hundred dollars," we can give the truth in that way.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] Why he should take it just like that when he can go on as he is going, preparing himself little bit by little bit?
Prabhupāda: Why little bit...? If he gets the, I mean to say, thing immediately, why should you go little by little?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers]
Prabhupāda: Suppose you are...
Yogeśvara: He says because he finds it more pleasing. His spiritual master has given him a name, Ratnānanda, and he says that that name means one who prepares himself little by little for the truth.
Prabhupāda: But is that very good intelligence? Suppose you are searching after one million dollar. You are working, little by little, little, and if somebody says, "Here is one million dollar. You take it," Why don't you take it?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He says it's a moral question. He already has his guru, and his guru has died---he's gone over to the other side---and he can't change gurus.
Prabhupāda: But there is no question of changing guru. If he is actually searching after the truth, then why he is denying the truth when it is delivered?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] He would have to be sure that it was the actual, highest truth.
Dr. Sallaz: The whole truth, eternal truth. Because you see...
Prabhupāda: That is... That we are...
Dr. Sallaz = [French]
Yogeśvara: This is the conclusion we came to yesterday with that other guests, that he says they have also found truths in China, they have also found truths in other scriptures...
Prabhupāda: So what is that truth?
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; discusses with Dr. Sallaz] [break]
Prabhupāda: ...is that reality?
Yogeśvara: He says he himself, he doesn't have the words to describe it.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot describe the reality, then you have not received the reality.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French] [break]
Prabhupāda: That means, as soon as you say you cannot describe, then you have no idea what is the reality.
Yogeśvara: He's willing to admit that.
Prabhupāda: So if you are actually searching after reality, why not, if reality is available from other source, why don't you take it? [break]
Yogeśvara: [French] Because certainly his members would have some questions they would want to ask you, and perhaps even you might have some questions that you would want to ask from his members.
Prabhupāda: Very good. We are prepared.
Yogeśvara: [explains in French; Dr. Sallaz answers] I think the thing is to make arrangement for such a meeting. Otherwise...
Prabhupāda: You can make arrangement. But our pro... [break] [end]