Morning Walk , Rome , 1974-05-24

Dhanañjaya: In fact, the word "London" is coming from the Latin word londonium. Londonium was a small fishing port that the Romans founded on the Thames.

Prabhupāda: Oh. You are not sufficiently covered.

Yogeśvara: I'm all right.

Prabhupāda: No, you are not all right. [pause] [break] Indian civilization is that they constructed big, big buildings, but for God, temple. And for the people, they were satisfied in small villages. So far the temples are concerned, South Indian temple, wonderful temple. [aside:] Not so near. Mostly Viṣṇu temple. We shall go this side?

Dhanañjaya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: [sound of birds chirping] In Tokyo there is a park, this sound was there. [pause] Cement, no?

Dhanañjaya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And fish combined.

Dhanañjaya: Yes, seahorse. Did such an animal exist, seahorse? Or is this man's imagination?

Prabhupāda: No, seahorse we have heard, there is. Sea elephant, seahorse, there are. [break]

Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...and all kinds of games. Four boys died that year trying to... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...and Roman climate the same? No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Rome is a little warmer, isn't it?

Dhanañjaya: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now the whole city is a little more humid.

Prabhupāda: Paris?

Yogeśvara: It's sunny. Sunny.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sunnier than London. Very close to London.

Yogeśvara: Not cold like London, ever.

Prabhupāda: There is snow. [break] ...and Darjeeling. [break]

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Anthropomorphic.

Prabhupāda: Anthropomorphic. That means man worship.

Satsvarūpa: They deify a man. He's a man, but the people make him as a god.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: They say that about Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa was a man, and then later His followers deified Him. That man wrote that in that pamphlet, Dr. Bannerjee, in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has said like that? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā manuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. So why they do not deify others? Only Kṛṣṇa? There were many big, big men. All the Pāṇḍavas, they were very big men. Kṛṣṇa was contemporary to the Pāṇḍavas. Why Kṛṣṇa was picked up, and not the Pāṇḍavas? What is the reason?

Yogeśvara: The Pāṇḍavas were the servants of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: The Pāṇḍavas were the devotees of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This anthropomorphism cannot be applied.

Satsvarūpa: Their activities were not so great.

Prabhupāda: Well, nobody's activities can be greater than God's activities.

Yogeśvara: There was that lady who came to see you yesterday who asked that "Lord Jesus performed so many miracles. So what miracles did Kṛṣṇa perform?" So your reply was so many miracles, killing Pūtanā and so on. But that was five thousand years ago. Kṛṣṇa's not here today. And people will ask, "Well, we cannot see these miracles. So how can we accept Kṛṣṇa?"

Bhagavān: Well they can't see Jesus' miracles either.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] They can see the miracles of Jesus Christ?

Yogeśvara: They will accept anyone.

Prabhupāda: All such questions. No sober questions.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa's miracles are in the hearts of devotees today.

Bhagavān: Kṛṣṇa's miracle is Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone can see. Who has given such information? All practical.

Bhagavān: There are so many scriptures all over the world, but just in the second chapter of Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa gives more knowledge than all of the other scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is the greatest miracle. [pause] These trees, not fruit trees?

Dhanañjaya: No. [break]

Yogeśvara: ...is that "Okay, you present Bhagavad-gītā as being the evidence for Kṛṣṇa, but so many people interpret Bhagavad-gītā. So where is the proof that it is miraculous if so many people debate it?"

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: If so many people have to debate the message of Bhagavad-gītā...

Prabhupāda: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. Just like Kṛṣṇa said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. So what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains? So what is your debate on this point?

Yogeśvara: Well, they may think..., they may agree that the teachings are good, but they can't accept it as proof that Kṛṣṇa was God.

Prabhupāda: Well, then you have to give me definition of God. What is God? If you know God, then you can say that "Kṛṣṇa is not God." Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? I give you a piece of gold. If you say, "It is not gold," then you show me what is gold. Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, "It is not this"? If you know the positive, then you can say the negative.

Yogeśvara: Well, there are many people who say that they have actually experienced God.

Prabhupāda: So what is that God? Tell me.

Yogeśvara: Well, it's like the Guru Maharaj-ji people. They say they've seen Guru Maharaj-ji lifting Govardhana Hill and displaying universal form and so many miracles. They say they have seen Guru Maharaj-ji doing all the miracles that Kṛṣṇa claims to have done.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, when Kṛṣṇa is present, when He lifted the Govardhana Hill, everyone saw. Where is your rascal Guru Maharaj doing that, everyone can see? When Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, He lifted the Govardhana Hill, all the inhabitants saw. [break]

Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...arising from Kṛṣṇa's pastimes proves that atheists cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Because they are atheists, they don't want to accept Him as God. Therefore they will not...

Prabhupāda: Atheist do not accept God anywhere. So atheist is different thing. Atheist is atheist. Āsuri. Āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Atheist has no knowledge. [break]

Dhanañjaya: ...control the whole of Rome. They own nearly all the businesses. [break]

Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...a few enjoying very much. In the whole city, a lot of parks, a lot of amphitheaters, and that is how they went to ruin.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. American luxury or European luxury leading to these hippies' poverty. Voluntarily they are accepting poverty. Opposite. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Pendulum.

Dhanañjaya: [loud noise from birds] What is that?

Prabhupāda: Cranes.

Dhanañjaya: Cranes?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: The zoo.

Dhanañjaya: Those are pelicans, with the big bag underneath. And there are some South American animals, llamas. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...fight with tiger and elephants?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lions. Lions.

Dhanañjaya: They would use a trident and a net, and they would try to throw the net over the lion and fight the lion like this.

Prabhupāda: And kill?

Dhanañjaya: And kill, yes. They would arm themselves with a helmet and some protection here for their arms, and sometimes for their chest, and then they would attack with the trident. [break] ...Tiberius Claudius.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: For enjoyment they would even put two gladiators fighting each other, two men killing each other, and they would all watch.

Prabhupāda: Just see. That was in India also, that Kaṁsa's wrestling with Kṛṣṇa. Yes.

Yogeśvara: Was that to the death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It comes automatically to death, although it is not meant. Nobody will agree that "I am defeated." Therefore death. There must be death. What is this building?

Dhanañjaya: This is a mock mountaintop for the goats and for other wild animals.

Prabhupāda: Oh, this is artificial?

Dhanañjaya: Artificial.

Yogeśvara: There's one. There's a goat. [end]