Morning Walk , Bombay , 1974-04-04

Prabhupāda: You get credit just by cramming.

Girirāja:

Prabhupāda: Ah, read it.

Girirāja:

"Arjuna said = I have heard Your instruction on confidential spiritual matters, which You have so kindly delivered unto me, and my illusion is now dispelled."

Prabhupāda: There must be the word meaning. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Girirāja: "arjuna uvāca---Arjuna said..." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...friend yesterday.

Dr. Patel: Sanskrit, sir.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So let us begin from the Eleventh so that word meaning they may understand. [break]

Dr. Patel:

Prabhupāda: Now try to understand the word meaning.

Girirāja: "arjunaḥ uvāca---Arjuna said; mat-anugrahāya---just to show me favor; paramam---supreme; guhyam---confidential; adhyātma---spiritual; saṁjñitam---in the matter of; yat---what; tvayā---by You; uktam---said; vacaḥ---words; tena---by that; mohaḥ---illusion; ayam---this; vigataḥ---is educated; mama---my."

Dr. Patel: It is in relation to the previous, this thing, that Tenth, that He showed you all the vibhūtis in various conditions of the creation, and by understanding the various vibhūtis, Arjuna said that "I have practically got disillusioned by Your this explanation." That is what he said. Is it all right?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is clear. Any question on this?

Dr. Patel: All right. Shall I go on?

Prabhupāda: No. So what is the translation?

Girirāja: "Arjuna said = I have heard Your instruction on confidential spiritual matters, which You have so kindly delivered unto me."

Dr. Patel: There you see here the last, last... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...means, now we have discussed Tenth... [break] What is the confidential?

Satsvarūpa: About Kṛṣṇa Himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: This is the confidential. Viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. That is the most confidential. "Only by one of My this thing, the whole jagat is being supported. Why do you want to talk about nonsense of so many things? Only one thing is important, and that is this."

Prabhupāda: So... Yes. So unless one is convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of all causes, sarva kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], he has not understood the confidential subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the con... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Unless one comes to this conclusion, that "Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything," ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, iti matvā bhajante mām, he cannot be fixed up in the worship or serving Kṛṣṇa. This conclusion must be reached.

Dr. Patel: The next word is telling the same thing as you say.

That "Everything is originating from You and..."

Prabhupāda: Now the opposite. This is the conclusion, that one has to understand that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes, He is the origin of everything. So why do they divert their attention to other subjects?

Dr. Patel: Because of the māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And what is that māyā?

Dr. Patel: That Kṛṣṇa is... [break]

Girirāja: Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary human being.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: They think that "Kṛṣṇa's body is just like mine."

Prabhupāda: This is Māyāvāda. This has been explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā [SB 7.5.30].

Dr. Patel: That's right. It was in me. Any of your ideas, it is, other than Kṛṣṇa, is māyā.

Prabhupāda: Please let me explain. Matir na kṛṣṇe. No, just explain. Matir na kṛṣṇe parato svato vā. Parato means "from other sources." Just like I am explaining. That is parato. And svato means...

Dr. Patel: Means Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: I will explain everything. Svato means personally, sva. Matir na kṛṣṇe parato svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām [SB 7.5.30]. Or mithaḥ. There are three sources of understanding.

Dr. Patel: What is that mithaḥ?

Prabhupāda: Mithaḥ means just like we are studying all together. Mithaḥ means in congregation. Abhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām.

Dr. Patel: Of the embodied people.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Gṛha-vratānām means those who are attracted to this...

Dr. Patel: [makes comment to someone else] Sorry. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Gṛha means this worldly family life. Gṛha-vrata. Gṛha.

Dr. Patel: You say gṛha and we say gruha.

Prabhupāda: Gṛha-vrata. So those who have decided that "We shall remain in this gṛha," for them, either personally or from others or by conference, the matir na kṛṣṇe.

Dr. Patel: They do not have that mind fixed on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot do it. Why they cannot? Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamiśram [SB 7.5.30]. This gṛha-vrata means their sense enjoyment. This gṛhastha life is a concession for sense gratification, license. Actually, it is not required. Sex life is not required. But those who cannot avoid the sex life, they are given some license, "All right, you enjoy sex life. Marry one woman, remain as faithful husband and wife." So unless one determines that "This is not my life, gṛha-vrata..." Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. In another place it is said also, by Sukadeva Gosvāmī, one who cannot understand what is his self-interest, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam, actually what is needed, what is the need of the soul, gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām... The gṛha-vrata and gṛhamedhi, these two words are for persons who are too much attached to this worldly life. So this determination already is there, that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Iti matvā bhajante mām. One who understands this perfectly well, he can be engaged in the matter of rendering service to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very difficult. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato va.

Dr. Patel: Swaminarayan has answered in this way, that any of your matir...

Prabhupāda: Swaminarayan...

Dr. Patel: No, no, I speak. Any buddhi other than giving Kṛṣṇa is māyā. Anything you think other than Kṛṣṇa is māyā.

Prabhupāda: Then when he thinks that "I am incarnation of Kṛṣṇa"...

Dr. Patel: He has not said.

Prabhupāda: ...it is not māyā?

Dr. Patel: He had not said so.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: If tomorrow these boys say that you are incarnation of God, is it your fault?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dr. Patel: That is what it is. Tomorrow these boys say, after you pass away, that you are incarnation of God, it is not your fault. Like that, people will say so. I have not said so.

Prabhupāda: But that is going on. The other day one, another Swaminarayan came. I ask him, "Why there is no picture of Kṛṣṇa?"

Dr. Patel: That we did discuss last time.

Prabhupāda: He also said like that. "No, because..."

Dr. Patel: Why do you want to divert?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You diverted. You brought Swaminarayan. We don't accept Swaminarayan as authority. We don't accept that.

Chandobhai: Let us hear the guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Then what happens further?

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

He wants to see His real form.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is not real form. Real form is Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Aiśvaram rūpam.

Prabhupāda: This is... This is a form for less intelligent, those who are thinking, "The God must be [indistinct] form. God, how He can be a humanlike form?" God is great, so he is thinking of greatness of God. Somebody thinks that, according to his own idea. Greatness means they have got idea, "The sky is the greatest." So God must be of the form like sky. Yes. So what is the...?

Girirāja: "bhava---appearance; apyayau---disappearance; hi---certainly; bhūtānām---of all living entities; śrutau---have heard; vistaraśaḥ---detail; mayā---by me; tvattaḥ---from You; kamala-patra-akṣa---O lotus-eyed one; māhātmyam---glories; api---also; ca---and; avyayam---inexhaustible. "

Translation = "O lotus-eyed one, I have heard from You in detail about the appearance and disappearance of every living entity, as realized through Your inexhaustible glories." [break]

"etat---this; yathāttha---as it is; tvam---You; ātmānam---the soul; parama-īśvara--- the Supreme Lord; draṣṭum---to see; icchāmi---I wish; te---You; rūpam---form; aiśvaram---divine; puruṣa-uttama---O best of personalities."

"O greatest of all personalities, O supreme form, though I see here before me Your actual position, yet I wish to see how You have entered into this cosmic manifestation."

Prabhupāda: Entered. So just like it is to be understood, he's very intelligent. Now, I am... As soul, my magnitude is described. What is that? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9]. Keśa agra, the tip of the hair, divide into hundred parts, and again take that one part, and again divide into hundred parts. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca. Now, it is simply it is to be imagined. Kalpitasya. Jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ. That is the magnitude of the jīva. Now, that magnitude of jīva has entered in this body or in the elephant's body. Now, which is important = the body is important or that small particle is important?

Chandobhai: Small particle is important.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Therefore those who are materialistic persons, they are amazed with the huge body of this universe. But Arjuna is saying that "On account of Your entering..." As this body has developed on account of entering, that small minute particle or spiritual spark, similarly, there are innumerable universes. All these universes, they have developed. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa's entering as Garbhodakaśayī Viṣṇu. That is explained in the last chapter:

By His one plenary portion, by entering into this material world, so gigantic form is there. Therefore they cannot understand that how Kṛṣṇa, just like a human being, He can be more important than this gigantic cosmic manifestation.

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

Prabhupāda: So darśayam, darśaya. "Now, how You have, I mean to say, manifested Yourself in this cosmic..., gigantic cosmic manifestation? So if it is possible, kindly..." So the point is = this gigantic cosmic manifestation is dependent on Kṛṣṇa, not that Kṛṣṇa is one of the product of this gigantic manifestation.

Girirāja: "manyase---if You think; yadi---if; tat---that; śakyam---able to see; mayā---by me; draṣṭum---to see; iti---thus; prabho---O Lord; yoga-īśvara---the Lord of all mystic power..."

Prabhupāda: Here Kṛṣṇa is addressed "Yogeśvara," because the yogic power, that is estimated very much important by the ordinary class of men. So He is the master of all yogic power. Just like here, that gold..., gold maker?

Girirāja: Sai Baba?

Prabhupāda: Sai Baba. He is showing little yogic aiśvarya. But people are, because they do not know, they are not aware of Kṛṣṇa, they are taking him as God. You see?

Girirāja: "...tataḥ---then; me---unto me; darśaya---show; ātmānam---Your Self; avyayam---eternal."

Translation = "If you think that I am able to behold Your cosmic form, O my Lord, O master of all mystic power, then kindly show me that universal self."

Dr. Patel: Now he shows.

Prabhupāda: Now, here is the description of how God manifests. So unless one reads Bhagavad-gītā carefully, they will be misled by this avatāra, that avatāra, that avatāra. You see?

Dr. Patel: Shall I read?

Paśyādityān...

Prabhupāda: No. One after another.

Girirāja: "śrī-bhagavān uvāca---the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; paśya---just see; me---My; pārtha---O son of Pṛthā; rūpāṇi---forms; śataśaḥ---hundreds; atha---also; sahasraśaḥ---thousands; nānā-vidhāni---variegated; divyāni---divine; nānā---variegated; varṇa---colored; ākṛtīni---forms; ca---also."

Translation = "The Blessed Lord said = My dear Arjuna, O son of Pṛthā, behold how [now] My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine forms, multi-colored like the sea."

Prabhupāda: This is another instruction. That I explained, that before accepting a so-called incarnation of God, one should ask him to show that "How you are God?" But they do not ask him. A group of person... Because he is accepted by a group of person, not by all... There are so many avatāras. But who knows them?

Dr. Patel: Shall I read?

Prabhupāda: Let us understand it. Don't be anxious to go forward. This is the..., that... Suppose a man declares himself that "I am avatāra." So intelligent man should test him, how he is avatāra. We accept Kṛṣṇa or Lord Rāmacandra for Their uncommon activities. But what is the uncommon activities, so many avatāras? Simply being praised by a group of persons, that's all. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Paśyādityān vasūn rudrān aśvinau marutas tathā [Bg. 11.6].

Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, He's saying that paśyādityān. Ādityān, plural number. Not only one; plural number. Ādityān means the Sūrya...

Dr. Patel: Sūrya and all those twelve sons.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Ādityān.

Dr. Patel: Vasūn, eight Vasus...

Prabhupāda: So here they cannot estimate the influence of one Āditya, and here He is showing all the Ādityas.

Dr. Patel: Within Him.

Prabhupāda: Within Him. That is Yogeśvara.

Dr. Patel: All ādityāns, vasūns, rudrān, aśvinau and the marut. Bahūny adṛṣṭa-pūrvāṇi paśyāścaryāṇi bhārata.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: "paśya---see; ādityān---the twelve sons of Aditi; vasūn---the eight Vasus; rudrān---the eleven forms of Rudra; aśvinau---the two Aśvinīs; marutaḥ---the forty-nine Maruts [demigods of the wind]; tathā---also; bahūni---many; adṛṣṭa---that you have not heard or seen..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even which Arjuna did not hear before, that was also shown. What was heard by him formerly, that was also shown, and...

Dr. Patel: Unheard of and unseen.

Prabhupāda: ...unheard of and unseen, that was also.

Girirāja: "...pūrvāṇi---before; paśya---there see; āścaryāṇi---all the wonderful; bhārata---O best of the Bhāratas."

Translation = "O best of the Bhāratas, see here the different manifestations of Ādityas, Rudras and all the demigods. Behold the many things which no one has ever seen or heard before."

Dr. Patel:

Prabhupāda: So this is, this is... You can... Mama deha. So the so-called incarnation of God, they should show in their body all these things. They must be accepted by the śāstra that he is avatāra. Otherwise, why so cheap avatāra we shall accept?

Girirāja: "iha---in this; eka-tham---in one place; jagat---the universe; kṛtsnam---completely; paśya---see..."

Prabhupāda: All together.

Dr. Patel: Kṛtsnam means all, complete.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that means there are innumerable universes, and that was exhibited by Kṛṣṇa in His boyhood.

Girirāja: "...adya---immediately; sa---with; cara---moving; acaram---not moving..."

Prabhupāda: What the modern scientists will say, that the..., all the universes were shown in the body of Kṛṣṇa. So what is the, I mean to say, what is called, action, reaction, reaction of the modern scientists?

Girirāja: They don't believe.

Dr. Patel: Even they are now trying to find out stars further and further with a bigger and bigger...

Prabhupāda: They cannot see even one universe, and here it is said that "All the universes, innumerable universes." So what these...?

Satsvarūpa: Their reaction is = "Simply because it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā does not mean it actually happened." They don't think it happened just because it is written here.

Prabhupāda: No, no, happened or not happened. But you have no estimation, even one universe. You cannot say like that, because you are a fool still. Even though it did not happen in the body of Kṛṣṇa, but you have no estimation; you cannot know what is the sun-god or sun planet or moon planet. You cannot go there. So what is the value of your knowledge? If the statement of Bhagavad-gītā has no meaning, then what is the meaning of your scientific knowledge? You are not perfect. So how you can say? Because you are imperfect, so you cannot say against Bhagavad-gītā, which is accepted by all the ācāryas---Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... [Dr. Patel begins to interrupt] Don't be in hurry. Just finish one word. That is sufficient.

Dr. Patel: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Without understanding, if you follow like a storm, that is no use. That is no use. Slow, but sure. Go slow... And that is the defect in the modern. If somebody can recite Bhagavad-gītā like storm, it is to be understood he has perfected himself. No. Let him explain at least one word of Bhagavad-gītā. That is wanted. Slow, but sure. That is going on. The professional Bhāgavata reciters, they jump over Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā. The rascal does not explain the first line of Bhagavad-gī..., Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. It requires many years to understand that one word, janmādy asya yata, and he jumps over = "Bhāgavata recitation means rāsa-līlā." That is going on. That has spoiled the whole atmosphere. Therefore that rascal has been able to challenge that Kṛṣṇa, that..., what is that, rural?

Satsvarūpa: "Popular rural god with sixteen thousand wives."

Prabhupāda: That's it. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and he is writing about Kṛṣṇa, "rural boy with sixteen thousand..." First of all, he does not know that when Kṛṣṇa was rural boy in Vṛndāvana He had no sixteen thousand wives. You see? Still, these rascals say "rural boy with sixteen thousand wives."

Dr. Patel: When He had this rāsa dance, He was only seven years.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, actually, He had sixteen thousand wives when He was in Dvārakā, but these rascals say "rural boy." "Rural boy" means when He was in Vṛndāvana. So he does not know even the history, and he is trying to write about Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. And that is the proof. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God, because you cannot maintain even one wife at the present moment. So He maintained sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God. That is the proof. But they will not take that side. They will take in other way, "Oh, this is all stories and fictitious, that's all." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. They do not know. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and they try to write upon Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa was an avatāra. Therefore I am also avatāra." These things are not very good.

Girirāja: "...mama---My; dehe---in this body; guḍākeśa---O Arjuna; yat---that; ca---also; anyat---other; draṣṭum---to see; icchasi---like you..., you like..."

Translation = "Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely."

Prabhupāda: That is avatāra. So nobody can compare. In the Vedic literature it is said, na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Nobody can be equal to Him. Sama. Sama means equal. Na tat-samaś abhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate: "Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him." That is Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as one claims that "I am also Kṛṣṇa," he is a bogus immediately.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

Girirāja: "na---never; tu---but; mām---Me; śakyase---able; draṣṭum---to see; anena..." [break]

Prabhupāda: How one can see? Suppose I am seeing this material sky. I cannot see what are there, not even the stars at the present moment, although we know there are millions and trillions of stars. So this is my power of seeing. So how can I see all the universes in the body of..., unless he gets a special power from Kṛṣṇa to see.

Girirāja: "...anena---by this; eva---certainly; sva-cakṣuṣā---with your own eyes; divyam---divine; dadāmi---I give; te---you; cakṣuḥ---eyes; paśya---see; me---My; yogam aiśvaram---inconceivable mystic power."

Translation = "But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence."

Prabhupāda: Now, this is Kṛṣṇa's power. Let us understand. A teeny aeroplane is floating in the air, and it is making so much sound. And millions and trillions of planets are floating, there is no sound. There is no sound. [break] ...if you take it and [indistinct] it up... What is that? One thousand or more than, one thousand miles.

Dr. Patel: A second.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This earth, per hour.

Dr. Patel: Earth is rotating and also going round... It has got two movements.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, but we cannot understand any movement, but it is moving. The force is there.

Dr. Patel: Shall I go further?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

Girirāja: "sañjaya uvāca---Sañjaya said; evam---thus; uktvā---saying; tataḥ---thereafter..."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Sañjaya was speaking in the room to Dhṛtarāṣṭra, and he said that "Now He showed." That means he was seeing. That is another television. Another television. That television is unknown now. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. This is also television. The television machine is within the heart. One can see everything, provided he has learned the art how to see that television within the heart.

Girirāja: "...rājan---O King; mahā-yoga-īśvaraḥ---the most powerful mystic; hariḥ---the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa; darśayām āsa---showed; pārthāya---unto Arjuna; paramam---divine; rūpam---universal form; aiśvaram---opulences."

Translation = "Sañjaya said = O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna."

Dr. Patel: Shall I read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

Prabhupāda: So even in the universal form, there is personality. Divya-mālya, divya-gandha, kirīṭina, dressed, well-dressed. Well-dressed is possible not in the imperson. If you want to dress somebody, he must be a person. You cannot dress in the sky. "Here is helmet, here is garland." Where you put? [laughs] So in the universal form also there is personality.

Girirāja: "aneka---various; vaktra---mouths; nayanam---eyes; aneka---various; adbhuta---wonderful; darśanam---sight; aneka---many; divya---divine; ābharaṇam---ornaments..."

Prabhupāda: You have to understand.

Girirāja: "...divya---divine..."

Prabhupāda: Aneka. So here is the word, aneka. Ana eka, "more than one."

Chandobhai: Not one.

Prabhupāda: So what is that aneka?

Dr. Patel: Everything, aneka.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: Innumerable, you can see.

Chandobhai: I mean [indistinct Sanskrit]

Prabhupāda: Aneka, that is confirmed in the Vedas, eka puruṣam. That is aneka. That is aneka.

Chandobhai: Eka puruṣam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Although He is one, He can manifest. He is exiting, not manifest. He is existing in aneka. And what is that aneka? Aneka means expansion of svāṁśa... That is... Therefore we require reference from many śāstras. In the Varaha Purāṇa this aneka explained---svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. Svāṁśa, expansion of the viṣṇu-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. He has expanded Himself in so many incarnations, rāmādi, like Rāma, not this loafer class. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. This is aneka. Another aneka---mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhuta [Bg. 15.7]. They are also aneka. Anantāya kalpate. So all the Viṣṇu forms and all the living entity forms, altogether, he was able to see in the body of Kṛṣṇa. That is aneka. Yes, go on.

Girirāja: "...udyata---uplifted; āyudham---weapons; divya---divine; mālya..."

Prabhupāda: Aneka. There are aneka ayuddhas. Every Viṣṇu form has four symbolic representation---śaṅkha-cakra-gadā-padma---and they are differently situated. People do not know it. They... It begins. Just like here śaṅkha, then next cakra, then next gadā, then pada. Then here begins padma, here begins śaṅkha, in so many.

Chandobhai: Differently.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: Combination, combination.

Prabhupāda: Yes, changing. These are in the śāstra, Siddhārtha-saṁhitā, how many forms are there. This is aneka. Not evasively, that "All is one." No. There are so many, so many varieties, variegated, all spiritual, aneka.

Girirāja: "...mālya---garlands..."[break]

Prabhupāda: ...are there. Each of them were garlanded, had helmets, had, I mean to say, ornaments. Everything aneka.

Dr. Patel: Mālyāmbara-dharam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dress, everything, garment, all varieties.

Girirāja: "...ambara-dharam---covered with the dresses; divya---divine; gandha---fragrance..."

Prabhupāda: Divine. That means they are not material. Kṛṣṇa's dress, Kṛṣṇa's helmet, Kṛṣṇa's bedding, Kṛṣṇa's shoes, they are all expansion of Lord Śeṣa. They are not material.

Girirāja: "...anulepanam---smeared; sarva---all; āścarya-mayam---wonderful..."

Prabhupāda: Although this is virāṭa-rūpa, still, there are aneka, many varieties. And each one of them is personally described. Yes.

Girirāja: "...devam---shining; anantam---unlimited; viśvataḥ-mukham---all-pervading."

Translation = "Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes..." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...mouths. The unlimited person. As soon as you say "unlimited mouths," means unlimited person. That is not imperson. Even in His aneka-mūrti He is person. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Second Chapter, that all we remained person in the past, we are person at present, and we shall continue to become person in the future. So this impersonal description of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is for the persons who do not understand what is God.

Girirāja: "It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed..."

Prabhupāda: Again personality. And where do they get the idea of impersonal, even in the virāṭa-rūpa? How do they get? What is the authority?

Chandobhai: Gopīs are personal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, everything is being described as person. So where is the question of imperson? Even in His aneka mūrti, in the virāṭa form, universal form, there are persons.

Girirāja: "He was garlanded gloriously..."

Prabhupāda: At least from Bhagavad-gītā nobody can prove that the Absolute Truth, God, is imperson. That is not possible. But still, they are doing that. That means they do not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, although they are very much proud of, regular scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. So am I right or wrong? Let us discuss.

Chandobhai: He is both personal and impersonal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why?

Dr. Patel: You are right.

Prabhupāda: No, here it is described person. Although the virāṭa-rūpa is there... Virāṭa-rūpa is considered...

Chandobhai: Virāṭa-rūpa is personal.

Prabhupāda: Personal. So but...

Indian man: Kṛṣṇa has also declared...

Dr. Patel: For personal communication...

Indian man: Kṛṣṇa says that "I am both personal, impersonal, and I am above that."

Prabhupāda: No, no. That imperson does not mean that He is not spiritually person. Impersonal means He does not become... That... This description of person, they are not these material persons.

Indian man: Ah, then it's all right. Spiritual personality, everyone believes. That's correct. Then there is no rift. Spiritual personality... [break]

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. They, these Māyāvādīs, they think, "Originally the Absolute Truth is avyakta. Now He has assumed, Kṛṣṇa, the form, accepting a body of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda. Abuddhayaḥ. They have no intelligence that spiritually the Lord is always vyakti, a person. Either Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, any way, He is always person.

Girirāja: "He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body."

Prabhupāda: It is all personal description = dress, ornaments, flowers, garlands, scents. This is offered to the person.

Girirāja: "All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: This is spiritual. Unlimited. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Shall I read?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

Girirāja: "divi---in the sky; sūrya..." [break] [end]