Morning Walk , Bombay , 1974-03-24

Prabhupāda: Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. This is... Different parts of our senses should be utilized. The first business is to fix up the mind at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Then engage the tongue in describing the activities of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has acted in so many ways so that we can remember the history of the activities of Kṛṣṇa and describe it. Vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. Then the legs should be used for going to the temple. Hands should be used for cleansing the temple. Nose should be used for smelling the flowers offered to Kṛṣṇa. Ears should be used for hearing about Kṛṣṇa. In this way if we engage our senses in different activities relating to Kṛṣṇa, that is success of life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. [Hindi] So now you can talk. [laughs] [laughter] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [Hindi] [break] ...practical purposes. This land and that water is matter, but we are walking on the land. Can you walk on the water?

Dr. Patel: Who is walking?

Prabhupāda: Huh? You are walking, I am walking.

Dr. Patel: Our body is walking.

Prabhupāda: So, so long you are...

Dr. Patel: Body is matter.

Prabhupāda: ...in the body, so we have to behave duality. [laughter] You cannot say oneness. When you are liberated from the body, that is another thing. For practical purposes... This philosophy was discussed by the mother of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu when He was a child. This philosophy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was given very nice sweetmeats to eat. So instead of eating the sweetmeat, He was eating the dirt. So mother said, "My dear child, why You are eating dirt? I have given You sandeśa." "Mother, what is the difference between this dirt and sandeśa? It is all Brahman." You see? So His mother said, "My dear child, You are all right. Just like this is earth, and there is earthen pot. So if you want to keep water, you cannot throw the water on the ground. You have to take the earthen pot." So this philosophy of oneness and difference was already discussed when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a child. Simultaneously one and different. Yes. Earthen pot and earth, actually, from the material point of view, they're the same thing. But if you want to keep water you cannot keep it on the ground. You have to take to the jug. [Hindi] [break]

Dr. Patel: I promise you I won't. Because you are trying to choke me.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not... We should have discussion. That is nice.

Dr. Patel: Shall we [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Under your command?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: All right. Mayādhyakṣeṇa...


mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate

Dr. Patel: That means...? "Because of..."

Prabhupāda: "Because of My direction." Hetunānena. "On this account." Mayādhyakṣeṇa: "Under My supreme control." Just like these boys and girls, my students, they are working under my direction. They are individuals; I am also individual. And they have got their independence, to obey or not to obey, but still, they are directed under my supervision. Similarly, this material nature has got individual power. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā [Bs. 5.44]. But still, yasya icchānurūpam api ceṣṭate sā. That material nature is working under the direction of the Supreme Person. Therefore, govindam ādi-puruṣam. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: We call him Baby. He is innocent like a baby.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very good qualification. But sometimes babies are misled. [break]

Dr. Patel:

yataḥ pravṛttir bhūtānāṁ
yena sarvam idaṁ tatam
svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya
siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhiṁ labhate parām.

Dr. Patel: So, now let us surrender. Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam.

Prabhupāda: Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Yena, that is person. Yena. That is not imperson. That is person. Is it not?

Indian man (1): Yes.

Dr. Patel: We have to say yes before you. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are a Sanskrit scholar.

Dr. Patel: I am not. I have just very little Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Yena, this word means "person." Yena. This is person.

Indian man (1): Both imperson and person.

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ. Now that girl, the doctor lady you choked the other day in the morning, she, poor thing, wanted that "I am practicing the medicine and serving people," and you call her a fool, "You are a damn fool." Well, she's doing the...

Prabhupāda: She is not serving. She's serving her... Everyone is serving money, money.

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. This serving, everyone is serving. Unless he pays, no service.

Indian man (1): That is not service.

Prabhupāda: That is not service.

Indian man (1): If we expect payment...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg. 2.47].

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, service, Kṛṣṇa is...

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] Do you want to throw it away in the sea?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is, everyone in this material world, serving somebody. Serving somebody. Because he is servant.

Dr. Patel: He's serving somebody or everybody. More or less it is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. No. Everybody or somebody. "Everyone's servant is nobody's servant." That is an English proverb. Anyway, this service is required. You cannot live without serving. That is not possible. Any one of us, serving somebody. But the result is, this material service... I have given several times the example that Mahatma Gandhi, he gave so much service. Result was he was killed. He was killed. Nobody thought... That person did not think that "Oh, this gentleman, old man, he has given so much service to us. Suppose I do not agree with him. Oh, how can I kill?" So people are so much ingrateful. You see? That whatever service you may render, they'll never be satisfied.

Dr. Patel: That service was svakarmaṇā, the karma...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all I am describing the service, what is service. Service means a servant, a master. And the transaction between the master and the servant is called service. Try to understand what is service. So we have created so many masters---the wife master, the family master, the country master, the legislative master, this master, that master. You see? And you are giving service. "Oh, it is my duty. I am giving service." But ask anybody if you are satisfied? He'll say, "What you have done?"

Indian man (1): He won't be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: No. They'll never be satisfied. Kāmādi... But this service is service to my kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. I am giving service to my wife because she satisfies me by sense gratification. Therefore I'm not giving service to my wife, but I'm giving service to my senses. So ultimately, we are servant of the senses. We are nobody's servants. This is our material position. Yes. Ultimately, we are servant of our senses.

Indian man (1): Or we are the servant of our ego.

Prabhupāda: So the position is constitutionally I am servant, but at the present moment, being conditioned by the material nature, I am giving service to my senses. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if I give service to the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa... Because senses, they are not independent. They are also dependent. Suppose I am now moving my hands, but if the master of my hand, Kṛṣṇa, paralyzes it, no more moving. Neither I can renovate the moving capacity of my hand. Therefore I am not master. Although I am claiming I am master of my hand, master of my leg, but actually I am not. The master is different. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Therefore the service should be transferred. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. We have engaged our senses for different purposes, but when we engage our senses for the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti. Bhakti is also service, but it is not service to the senses, but it is service to the master of the senses. This is bhakti. So constitutionally I am servant. I cannot become master. I have to serve. So if I don't serve the master of the senses, then I will have to serve the senses. This is our position.

Dr. Patel: I was... I wanted a little exposition on this, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svakarmaṇā.

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā. Now the karma of a man... I will speak for the while, huh?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; like me. And whether he's a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha. On that karma. And that karma when he does without expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Kṛṣṇa. Give the result to Kṛṣṇa. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Kṛṣṇa. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word tam. Tam abhyarcya.

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, karmaṇā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: How can you object to the karma? That is why I want to know.

Prabhupāda: No, karma...

Dr. Patel: Karmaṇā abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Karma, karmaṇā, by your work. Just like you are working as a medical practitioner. So you earn lakhs of rupees. Give to Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. Then you become perfect. That is also confirmed in Bhāgavata. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ [SB 1.2.13]. We have already explained that our karma, our karma, according to varṇa and āśrama... Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone is working according to varṇa and āśrama. So svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Anyone who is serving according to his dharma---an engineer, a doctor, or somebody else, according to his occupational duty he is serving---but he has to see, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate. It is Gītā. And it is said, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhiḥ, perfection. What is that? Hari-toṣaṇam. We have to see whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. So you earn lakhs of rupees and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa said yat karoṣi, "Never mind what you are doing," kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam, "give Me it." [laughter] And "No, no, no, sir. I'm serving You, but the money is in my pocket."

Dr. Patel: Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. How can you give anything? Even a leaf?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Just like these boys and girls are giving. Oh, that is the philosophy. These boys, girls, they are giving everything, whole life. Whole life. They have no... They do not ask even a single paisa from me that "My dear sir, please give me four annas. I'll go to the cinema." You see? They are serving. Everything they have given. This boy, you like this Girirāja. He's earning at least 50,000 per month. Not a single paisa, even fifty n.p. he does not keep. This is service. They are not poor. They're earning, but everything for Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Girirāja, how you are earning fifty thousand rupees a month?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fifty-thousand. Because fifty members. Fifty members, eleven hundred rupees. He makes at least two, three members. If some day absent, average fifty. Fifty thousand. Not a single fifty n.p. he keeps. There are many. All, all of them. Not that everyone is earning fifty thousand, but even fifty hundred or fifty paisa, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. And if you divide partially, "Some percentage for Kṛṣṇa, some percentage for my sense gratification," then Kṛṣṇa says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Proportionately. If you have spent cent percent of your energy for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is cent percent for you. And if you have spent one percent for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is one percent for you. Responsive cooperation.

Indian man (1): Responsive cooperation. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Yes. This institution has advanced so much all over the world because we have got these boys who have dedicated everything for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it has so quickly advanced all over the world. They do not think of anything of personal. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Kṛṣṇa is also... Huh?

Indian man (1): What is that saṁsiddhi noun?

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi means perfection. Saṁsiddhiḥ paramaṁ gataḥ.

Dr. Patel: What is saṁsiddhi actually?

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi means perfect perfection. Samyak perfection.

Dr. Patel: What is perfection?

Prabhupāda: Perfection means you are living entity, you are living entity, you are rotting in this material world. Get free from this material world, go back to home. That is saṁsiddhi. We are suffering so much on account of being in the material world. Tri-tāpa-yantana, threefold miseries. And everyone is trying to get out of the miseries, but that is not possible in the material world. Therefore you get your spiritual form and go back to Kṛṣṇa and dance with Him. That is saṁsiddhi. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is saṁsiddhi. "After giving up this body, no more accepting any more material body." Then he's zero? No. Mām eti: "He comes to Me, to dance with Me, to play with Me." That is saṁsiddhi. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ.

When Śukadeva Gosvāmī was describing the cowherds boy playing with Kṛṣṇa, he described, itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā...

itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā
dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena
māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa
sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ

[SB 10.12.11]

These boys, these cowherds boys, they have accumulated kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ, heaps of pious activities; therefore they are now allowed to play with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Not ordinary thing. So the impersonalists, they cannot understand, "What is this, playing with Kṛṣṇa, cowherds boy?" But here it is said, kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. This is not ordinary thing. Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā. Satām. Those who are trying to appreciate brahma-sukha, for them, here is the Supreme Truth, Kṛṣṇa. And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena. And those who have accepted to become the servant of the Lord, for them here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa. Mūḍha. Māyāśritānām. They are thinking, "Oh, He is Kṛṣṇa, ordinary boy. What is this?" But they are playing. These boys are playing with Him. Why? Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Of many lives pious activities, they have come to this position, kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...to understand Kṛṣṇa and to engage himself in the service of the Lord, it requires a qualification, that completely... Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ...

Indian man (1): Janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28].

Prabhupāda: Janānāṁ puṇya-ka... Those who are simply... This is the highest puṇya-karma, to engage one life's activities only for the service of Kṛṣṇa. That is the greatest puṇya-karma. And material puṇya-karma, a little discrepancy... Just like the Nṛga. Nṛga. What is that? He was very charitable, distributing cows, and little mistake, he had to become a alligator.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes. And he fell into that...

Prabhupāda: Well.

Dr. Patel: Well, yes. And those boys came and Kṛṣṇa saved him.

Prabhupāda: Daily thousands of cows he was distributing.

Dr. Patel: And one day brāhmaṇa's cow was wrongfully given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these material pious activity is like that. There is risk. There is risk.

Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? We shall go a little more? Little more let us go. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11].

Dr. Patel: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] ...but you start when there is little light. Not in the darkness.

Dr. Patel: Before we were starting earlier, at quarter to six. Now we are doing at six-thirty.

Prabhupāda: Not six-thirty.

Dr. Patel: Real pleasure is coming at six. It is really very fine here. You come here at five... [break]

Prabhupāda: And they want to come when there is little light. I can come at two o'clock. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday?

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Everyone knows.

Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday at three o'clock and wake you up?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anytime. I get up at one o'clock. Everyone knows.

Dr. Patel: I get up at three o'clock and read. One day I will come into your room.

Prabhupāda: So you are late, late like that, than me. I rise at one o'clock.

Dr. Patel: And you go to bed at twelve?

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: Nine o'clock.

Prabhupāda: No. I go to bed between ten to eleven.

Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine-thirty. I must go to bed early. Otherwise, I can't get up.

Prabhupāda: All right, let us go. [break] ...ḍāl, cāpāṭis, [indistinct] brāhmaṇas cook.

Dr. Patel: He has a very good cook. That day I don't know how he ran away, or... You striked him, no?

Prabhupāda: No. No, sometimes they smoke bīḍīs. That is the difficulty.

Indian man (2): That is not in the presence of the kitchen itself, but outside.

Dr. Patel: They do all sorts of nonsense.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty.

Dr. Patel: If we don't allow them, they do it.

Prabhupāda: And they will drink tea, smoke.

Dr. Patel: They always drink tea, all the cooks. They won't like...

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty with us. We do not want to set such bad examples. [break] ...Hindu system is very hygienic. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Extremely hygienic. The W.C.'s also.

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Dr. Patel: They must be kept extremely clean house, some of the diseases, you must have those placec tiles...

Prabhupāda: Yes.These European, American boys, they gave up their smoking habit, drinking tea habit, all habits, meat-eating, immediately. But if we ask any Indian, he has to consider for three generation.

Dr. Patel: That is because they have been so trained from childhood.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have been trained same, from childhood, meat-eating, drinking wine, drinking tea, smoking and illicit sex, but they gave up immediately.

Dr. Patel: But in hygiene also they have [indistinct] our way. The hygiene is not...

Prabhupāda: They are observing hygienic principle as far as possible, but only thing is they require little guidance.

Dr. Patel: This kitchen behind is too small, hotel, they...

Prabhupāda: No. We can make a big kitchen; we have got enough room.

Dr. Patel: I told them, maybe away we must have a small room attached to it where these boys can take... [break] [Hindi] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...but I am not this body.

Dr. Patel: That's right. So the mosquitoes also have no body.

Prabhupāda: They tolerate. Actually, they tolerate because they factually think that "I am not this body. Let the mosquito bite my body."

Dr. Patel: [laughs] So mosquitoes also have no body.

Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, deha-smṛti nāhi yāra, saṁsāra bandhana kāhāṅ tāra. One who is beyond the conception of body, he has no obligation of these material things. Just like there are many sādhus, they simply remain naked body, even in severe cold. They are practiced.

Dr. Patel: They have reached that avadhūta-veṣa.

Prabhupāda: So this is also avadhūta-veṣa.

Dr. Patel: But that stage you must reach.

Prabhupāda: No, somehow or other, they have gone to some extent. "Never mind the mosquito. Let bite. I am not this body."

Dr. Patel: [laughs] It's like you have hypnotized them.

Prabhupāda: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak, how they are chanting and dancing saṅkīrtana? They are not weak at all. [Hindi] [break] "Now let me dance. Then I shall jump over your head." [Dr. Patel laughs] This is philosophy. "Now I am dāsa, then I become your master."

Dr. Patel: How can you be master when I am nothing? When I am dāsa, then I will be nothing before you.

Prabhupāda: That is voidism. You are something. How you are nothing?

Dr. Patel: How can you be the master of a master?

Prabhupāda: That is not possible, but these Māyāvādīs tries for this.

Dr. Patel: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādīs, they wants to become the master. [Hindi] [break] [Dr. Patel greets someone] They are Māyāvādī?

Dr. Patel: No. They are Vaiṣṇavas. All Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: But they worship...

Dr. Patel: They worship Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa and their original...

Dr. Patel: Guru. They worship you, don't they?

Prabhupāda: No, no. The guru can be worshiped, but...

Yaśomatīnandana: They worship guru as God.

Dr. Patel: No. God is God. How can...

Prabhupāda: [greets passerby:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: They worship guru and God both.

Prabhupāda: That is guru. Guru and God...

Dr. Patel: And you. You cannot worship God without guru.

Prabhupāda: And, "Let God go away," oh, that is not good. That is not good.

Dr. Patel: It is not so. I think somebody has wrongly informed you, sir. And I will get you some comparative literatures to... [break] There are no four-hand there. There are no... You have wrongly seen and I have wrongly seen. No. That is really...

Prabhupāda: But you showed me the wrong thing.

Dr. Patel: It was not right thing, but we have not seen in the dark. It was right thing, it was Kṛṣṇa's own photograph, and there were no four hands.

Prabhupāda: But I saw the picture. The guru has four hands.

Dr. Patel: No. We saw it in dark, both of us. And I also wonder... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...in a Rāma mandira, but there was no Rāma.

Dr. Patel: Yes, Rāma mandiras have all degenerated.

Prabhupāda: There was no Rāma. The guru's picture. He's Rāma.

Dr. Patel: That is Rāma. In all the temples of Sañjaya and there... always Kṛṣṇa's that you have here. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...[indistinct] What is this?

Indian man (2): No, no. He is from that sampradāya. [break] They worship God as Swaminarayan. "My Lord is Nārāyaṇa." Swami means the Lord, and Nārāyaṇa is the Lord. So they say always "Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan." Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, they chant "Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan." The Lord is Nārāyaṇa, Lord is Nārāyaṇa. Lord is Nārāyaṇa. So Swami is Nārāyaṇa. You see, actually what did he preach? "Our Swami is Nārāyaṇa." So they have Swaminarayan song.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda.

Indian man (1): That is Māyāvāda, or whatever it may be.

Indian man (2): Oh, Lord is Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Everything is Māyāvāda. As soon as we say, "Our Swami is Nārāyaṇa," it is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: It is not that. It is... What he says is not right.

Indian man (1): No, that is..., I understand. I have not...

Dr. Patel: You read all the [indistinct] that I have read. He accepts... [break]

Prabhupāda: Vivekananda has done daridra-nārāyaṇa. Here is "Swaminarayan."

Dr. Patel: That is different also. You don't put up two together.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Same thing. Another...

Dr. Patel: Don't get excited or it will be...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm not getting excited. You are getting.

Indian man (1): You also don't get excited.

Dr. Patel: I am not getting excited, but it's not that. I will really bring you the real...

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am asking what is the difference between this daridra-nārāyaṇa and Swaminarayan? That I am asking.

Dr. Patel: See, he actually went to Badrinath.

Indian man (1): When we call Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, as our Lord, how is it Māyāvāda? How it comes in Māyāvādī?

Prabhupāda: That is explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Guru is accepted as good as God. Haritvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Saba-śāstra.

Dr. Patel: In all śāstras.

Prabhupāda: Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ, it is said. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. And this principle is accepted by great saintly person. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. He's not one with the Prabhu, but he's very dear servant of Prabhu.

Dr. Patel: That is right.

Prabhupāda: That conception is Vaiṣṇavism. And as soon as you simply say that "He is God," that is Māyāvāda.

Indian man (2): Yes, but we are not... But he has wrongly...

Indian man (1): No, Swaminarayan, what I told you the principle of Swaminarayan is that...

Dr. Patel: Swaminarayan... You have no right to speak.

Indian man (1): No, no. What I understand about this...

Dr. Patel: There are three schools of Vaiṣṇavism. But that... In that school, the preaching and everything in the worship is the same, more or less. [break]

Prabhupāda: The thing is... This is the conclusion, that guru may be worshiped as Kṛṣṇa, but the worshiper knows that "I am worshiping my guru not because he has become Kṛṣṇa, but he is the most confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is Vaiṣṇava.

Dr. Patel: That is what Swaminarayan is saying. All the Vaiṣṇavas, what he has said, every time he has said the same thing. Unless there may be a constant mind...

Prabhupāda: This is the difference between Vaiṣṇava school and Māyāvādī school. Advaita-vāda and dvaita-vāda. They become very strong; at the same time, remain servant.

Dr. Patel: These śuddhādvaita-vādīs, their upper brāhmaṇa[?] and lower brāhmaṇa[?] the same as... [break] ...you call Māyāvādīs, they say that this is all humbug and nothing and nonexistence. They... [break] ...both are one and both are right and both are existent and both are... There is no illusion, as you say. The same thing.

Prabhupāda: Simultaneously one and different.

Dr. Patel: That is a little check.

Prabhupāda: So unless you accept this difference, then it is Māyāvāda. Simply oneness is Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: That's right. You may... You accept one and the same, separate both or another explana..., another, only Kṛṣṇa knows and nobody knows.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, why Kṛṣṇa knows? One who is Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he knows also.

Dr. Patel: All are Vaiṣṇava devotees, aren't they?

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda. Not all of.

Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Vallabhācārya's devotees, Vaiṣṇavas are not...?

Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya is a sampradāya.

Dr. Patel: But are they not Vaiṣṇavas?

Prabhupāda: That is a sampradāya. Viṣṇu Svāmī–sampradāya. That is accepted. That is accepted.

Dr. Patel: Rāmānujācārya's Vaiṣṇava was not Vaiṣṇava?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: Then why do you say so? They are all Vaiṣṇavas, but...

Prabhupāda: But Rāmānujācārya does not say that the devotee is God.

Dr. Patel: Nobody says so. It is viśiṣṭa...

Prabhupāda: No. [break] ...oneness with diversity. Yes. That is viśiṣṭādvaita philosophy. And nirviśeṣa. Nirviśiṣṭa-advaitavādī sāṅkhya philosophy. Nirviśiṣṭa.

Indian man (1): Nirviśiṣṭa means?

Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya.

Prabhupāda: Nirviśiṣṭa means... No, śuddhā... Vallabhācārya... Śuddhādvaita. Śuddhādvaita. [Indian men talking at once] That is called kevalādvaita. Kevalādvaita. [break] Kṛṣṇa is ādi. Viṣṇu is, in the material world, He's accepted as one of the devas: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg. 10.2].

Indian man (1): So Kṛṣṇa is ādi of Viṣṇu...

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu also.

Dr. Patel: Mahā-Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No Mahā-Viṣṇu is ādi. Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā-viśeṣa, partial exhibition of Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Brahma-saṁhitā = yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśesaḥ [Bs. 5.48]. This Mahā-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing innumerable universes are coming, that Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā-viśeṣa.

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya
jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ
viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo
govindam ādi-puruṣam tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.48]

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] From Lord Brahmā. Brahmā.

Devotee: That was found by Lord Caitanya, Prabhupāda? The Brahma-saṁhitā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of the manuscripts were found in South India, and He brought it and He delivered, that "This is authoritative."

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact, the Vaiṣṇavism started from South India.

Prabhupāda: Even Śaṅkara was also South India.

Dr. Patel: Cult of Vaiṣṇavism started from South India.

Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, they came from South India.

Dr. Patel: They are more religious.

Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya also South India.

Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya is from north, no?

Prabhupāda: South India.

Indian man (1): Born in Bihar, but South India... [break]

Dr. Patel: And the worst damn... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...beaches. The sand is like this. Not like that.

Dr. Patel: Like this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This soft sand. But not walking, our sand. This Juhu Beach is specially nice.

Dr. Patel: Made for us. [laughs] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...kingdom, the Maharashtrian brāhmaṇas, they were more staunch.

Dr. Patel: They did not serve Muslims, like brāhmaṇas who are from Bengal and Gujarat. Gujarati brāhmaṇas and Bengali brāhmaṇas served the Muslims...

Prabhupāda: Brahminical culture. Sanātana Gosvāmī. Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was also brāhmaṇa, but because he served the Muhammadans, he was rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. Then Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, raised them to the position of gosvāmī. Their name was also changed. Dabira Khāsa. Dabira Khāsa.

Dr. Patel: Muslim name.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Muslim name.

Dr. Patel: But here in Gujarat we have got so many brāhmaṇas and... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...magistrates.

Dr. Patel: Ah, but then these are Muslim brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: So it is Muslim name. Their forefathers were magistrates, that's all. Kazi, there is no harm... Munshi, Kazi. They're common... [break] If you go to anyone, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," they'll understand = "Here is Hare Kṛṣṇa people." That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Anywhere---Africa, Australia, Japan---they know, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." We are known as "Hare Kṛṣṇa people."

So there are so many apartments... [end]