Morning Walk , Bombay , 1974-03-23

Prabhupāda: The point is that these daityas are elected by the daityas.

Dr. Patel: Now, sometimes even they were liked, the daityas. When they have the samudra-mathana, even the devas went to the daityas to help them. So it is... I mean, that is not so. We have to take the help of daityas for a good work. But they are frustrating us. How is the argument? All right?

Prabhupāda: No. Because there are no more available devas, therefore daityas are the only...

Dr. Patel: We are like that. These rascals, you see, they have got no sense of proportion. There are two dozen mosques come up in this area without any reason in any way. And they are upset when there is construction of a Hindu temple. They are majority. So they are daityas. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...required. They, they, they required. We are...

Dr. Patel: They are thinking themselves to be qualified.

Prabhupāda: We are... We are...

Dr. Patel: What do... They are getting qualified every day by madirā. And what other things which I don't want to talk to you. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: So when it is mixed, it is called varṇa-saṅkara. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Well, the varṇa-saṅkaras are more strong today than the pure saṅkaras. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...question, I shall try to answer.

Trivikrama: Give you a question?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Dr. Patel: Yeah. I have taken out a śloka from Bhagavad-gītā for you. And my friends always tells me not to put it before you, because it will create a sort of a hot discussion. But I am going to put it.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Patel: It is this... Ye 'py... [aside:] Bolo.

Indian man (2): Ye 'py anya... [break]

Dr. Patel: ...mām. Ye 'py anya-devatā...

Indian man (2): Bhaktāḥ.

Dr. Patel: Ye 'pi bhaktāḥ. Nei. Bhajante, śraddhayānvitāḥ, te 'pi mām eva bhajante, te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam [Bg. 9.23]. They are also bhajanti, avidhi-pūrvakam. I mean, no doubt, they also, all, all who worship go to Kṛṣṇa's feet.

Prabhupāda: Just like..., just like if you want to give me some food to eat, so you should give me to my mouth, not to my rectum. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: But they are doing it now. We are giving enema. We treat with enema in America. You see? [laughs] He said, he said that don't give these things to him because there will be plenty of argument...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, this is the reason = to give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole."

Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's right.

Dr. Patel: But my question is...

Prabhupāda: Avidhi-pūrvakam.

Dr. Patel: No, but they're...

Prabhupāda: That is avidhi-pūrvakam.

Dr. Patel: Avidhi-pūrvakam. But also, still, they are worshiping God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is part and parcel of God, but everyone is not God. That is the way. That any hole of my body, that is my body. But when food is to be taken, it is only this, not another, other hole. That is the way. [break] ...and if you are saying like that... Just like... Here... When you...

Dr. Patel: But it is of the..., is doing that to you also. Why do you worry about it?

Prabhupāda: No, no. When the...

Dr. Patel: We can give it in the vein also.

Prabhupāda: No, no. [laughter] That is not the way. That is avidhi-pūrvakam.

Dr. Patel: But... Listen. That is why I say, disease or no disease, vidhi's going to help your body and bring you nutrients, even given by intravenously or by rectum or by mouth. By any way.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: But they are going to... He's going to...

Prabhupāda: This is... This is for the nonsense. You see?

Dr. Patel: Having the... Why nonsense now?

Prabhupāda: No, no. If the way is this, that food should be taken within the mouth...

Dr. Patel: But this is also... This is what is said by Kṛṣṇa, by Himself in Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Avidhi-pūrvakam. Everything is sevā, but avidhi-pūrvakam.

Dr. Patel: It may be sevā, but...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kaṁsa. Kaṁsa was thinking of Kṛṣṇa always, but he's not a devotee. Avidhi-pūrvakam. No, that...

Dr. Patel: But he was not a bhakta. He was an enemy.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Therefore... He was thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but still, he's not a devotee.

Dr. Patel: But here is the question of devotee = ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktāḥ bhajante mām avidhi-pūrvakam. Devatā-bhaktāḥ. They are bhaktas, not enemies.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakta... One who worships God, he's a bhakta. Just like sometimes you have to go to the chief minister through his cāparāsī. But the cāparāsī is not the chief minister.

Dr. Patel: That's right. But a chief minister gets pleased through the cāparāsī. All right. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: But if you, if you say...

Dr. Patel: Not my argument it is, eh? This is the argument.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is wrong argument. You see... Just like our Hadaji Batlal[?], he was...

Dr. Patel: Now, how would it be wrong argument, sir? We are following the same process. We collected those foodstuffs... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...commissioner is not the politician. Why do you mix them?

Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa was never a politician. He was a...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. This is a wrong theory. This is a wrong theory. You can approach somebody through somebody, but they are two, individual persons. [break] ...he is bhakta, yes.

Dr. Patel: "I am enjoyer of all the yajñas to whom, whatever and to whomever you are being." How would you accept that...

Prabhupāda: No, no. The king... The king is the proprietor of all taxes. But he's not a tax collector.

Dr. Patel: Now, now, Chandobhai, come here.

Prabhupāda: The king...

Indian man (3): What do you want?

Prabhupāda: ...is the proprietor...

Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ hi sarva-bhoktānāṁ bhakto māṁ parameśvaram.

Prabhupāda: Just like the king, and there are many tax collectors. So tax goes to the king.

Indian man (3): Yes, king, yes.

Prabhupāda: It does not belong to the tax collectors.

Indian man (3): Correct.

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4].

Indian man (3): Correct. [break]

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): So you transcend them.

Prabhupāda: "Everything, everything is connected with Me, but I am not that." That is...

Indian man (3): Much more than that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Mattaḥ sarva-bhūtāni, mat-sthānīti.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Indian man (3): He's much more than that.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can exist without Kṛṣṇa. But that does not mean everybody's Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: But there is nobody other than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Excepting the jīvas, as you say.

Prabhupāda: No. Nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4].

Dr. Patel: No, as I am reading the Bhāgavata today, everything is emanating from Kṛṣṇa. Even your jīvas are part and parcel of Viṣṇu's...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that doesn't mean Kṛṣṇa is jīva.

Dr. Patel: But he's evolved from everything, and nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right.

Dr. Patel: If that is the real thing, then, I mean, any, any other deva being worshiped as good as...

Prabhupāda: Just like everything is material energy, but that does not mean this land is the sea. That is nonsense. That is nonsense.

Dr. Patel: At the end land is sea. No, no, it is not...

Prabhupāda: Everything is material. Everything is material. If you say, "Then the land and the sea is the same"...

Dr. Patel: Yes!

Prabhupāda: ...that is nonsense.

Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nonsense.

Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is nonsense.

Bhāgavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same.

Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Scientist...

Dr. Patel: Please...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense.

Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no...

Prabhupāda: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense.

Dr. Patel: Nonsense in this present circumstances. You change the circumstances.

Prabhupāda: Any circumstances. Any circumstances.

Dr. Patel: Other circumstances.

Prabhupāda: Any circumstances. You cannot say... We say that this is matter. But you cannot say that land is water, water is land. You cannot say that.

Dr. Patel: Would you please give me a hearing...

Prabhupāda: No, no, everything is matter, that is all right.

Dr. Patel: That's right. That is what I want to say.

Prabhupāda: No, that I admit. That I admit. That is the difficulty of the Māyāvādīs. They cannot distinguish the varieties.

Dr. Patel: Goes on, goes on, goes on.

Indian man (3): Land is the whole Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Māyāvādī...

Dr. Patel: Whenever it is, a question of matter is evolved from māyā. So we are Māyāvādīs, all of you, you and me.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dr. Patel: Yes, because we are talking of māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyā means śakti. Māyā means śakti. Māyā means śakti.

Dr. Patel: That's it. Then śakti's of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Nothing can happen without the śakti. Nothing can happen without the energy.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the...

Dr. Patel: You cannot move your finger...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot avoid the varieties.

Dr. Patel: But variety is produced by...

Prabhupāda: Just like in your body, this is your head, this is your hand. Everything is body. But if you say, "Everything is body," what is this nonsense?

Dr. Patel: How can it be nonsense?

Prabhupāda: Ah! It is nonsense.

Dr. Patel: That particular...

Prabhupāda: Why there is separate name, "This is head," "This is hand," "This is leg"?

Dr. Patel: When this thing, whole body, was in the embryo...

Prabhupāda: Then it is called "unity in varieties." That is called.

Dr. Patel: And I will... Shall I speak?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot say the head and the leg is the same.

Dr. Patel: Let me talk now.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say that.

Dr. Patel: Shall I talk it now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: When this body was being manufactured in the embryo, in the womb...

Prabhupāda: No, I know that you don't require this. I know that.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is matter. But it becomes varieties.

Dr. Patel: It was not matter to anyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That was also inside.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: In the seed there is the whole banyan tree.

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter... They manifested into varieties. First of all, they, after sex intercourse, the two seminas is emulsified, and it becomes like a pea. And it develops into different parts of the body.

Dr. Patel: Right, but I, what I am coming to this point is that...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot say...

Dr. Patel: ...even in Upaniṣad, from a small seed, big banyan tree has come out. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: And that...

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: So seed is the real thing. And that seed is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So everything is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Again, everything is Kṛṣṇa. Again same nonsense, same nonsense. [laughs] Kṛṣṇa says, "I am not that." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4].

Dr. Patel: Na tu mat-sthāni bhūtāni paśya me, uh, aiśvaram.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is varieties.

Dr. Patel: But in the second... That is...

Prabhupāda: So there is...

Dr. Patel: ...correction in the second śloka only.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not correction. It is correction because we fools, we cannot understand Him as clearly. "So although everything is existing in Me, I am not everything."

Dr. Patel: "Still, everything existing in Me." But...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: What is that?

Indian man (3): Ahaṁ yogam aiśvaram.

Dr. Patel: Yogam aiśvaram.

Prabhupāda: Just like in this hotel = there are so many furnitures, so many rooms. So if you say, "Everything is hotel," what is this nonsense?

Dr. Patel: Ah, but without furniture hotel cannot be. Without building, hotel cannot be. Without this...

Prabhupāda: But why do you say, "It is furniture"?

Dr. Patel: ...parts, all this, the body cannot be.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is means less intelligent.

Dr. Patel: That is what I am...

Prabhupāda: Yes

Dr. Patel: I want to correct my intelligence.

Prabhupāda: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent.

Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel.

Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a bauddha.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say that.

Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense argument, "Hotel is furniture."

Dr. Patel: Yes, it is.

Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... [break]

Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties.

Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to be from the root.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent.

Dr. Patel: I am very less intelligent. I have no intelligence.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: The root is manifested from the seed.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That everyone knows.

Dr. Patel: And that we are going to the seed...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot say...

Dr. Patel: ...and not to the top of the tree.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say, when the tree is grown, you cannot say, "The leaf is also root. The fruit is also root. The trunk is also root." This is nonsense.

Dr. Patel: This is what the Vedas...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That, Vedas does not say. Veda is not so nonsense.

Dr. Patel: Then it is [indistinct] very differently I understand it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya-bhedābheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.

Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like my the same example = the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different.

Dr. Patel: Bheda?

Indian man (3): Bheda abheda. [break]

Prabhupāda: [laughs] ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me.

Prabhupāda: No. That means you are less.

Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less?

Prabhupāda: But you should come to this, that there is, in the bheda, abheda, there is bhedas. In the abheda... It is very simple thing, that my hand is not different from my body, but still, hand is not body. It is... A child can understand.

Dr. Patel: But when the child grows, he does not understand it. That is the misfortune of this.

Prabhupāda: That is...

Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda. Māyāvāda, no?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Māyāvāda. [chuckles] Acintya-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedābheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya.

Dr. Patel: [Gujarati] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...to eleven. Why not give me?

Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here.

Prabhupāda: Then Bhāgavata is compared with the body of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa worships begins from the feet.

Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is avidhi-pūrvakam.

Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi-pūrvaka, then I'll do it, vidhi-pūrvakam.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.

Bhāgavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupāda... [break]

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādam asac-chāstraṁ pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate. Pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate [Padma Purāṇa].

Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open bauddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand.

Dr. Patel: No, I am... I am actually submissive.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no.

Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding.

Prabhupāda: But you...

Dr. Patel: That is what I was taught in my school.

Prabhupāda: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand.

Dr. Patel: No, I cannot submit till I understand.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Praṇipāta. First of all, praṇipāta.

Dr. Patel: I am always doing praṇipāta.

Indian man (3): Jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Dr. Patel: I am doing praṇipāta to you. Do you think I am disrespecting you? If you take, then you pardon me.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. It is not the question of disrespecting, but that is not full surrender. You think that you know better than me.

Dr. Patel: I don't think so.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you talk of all this...

Dr. Patel: No, no. If you go on with that, I will not talk from tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: I want to learn myself.

Prabhupāda: But that will be very good. If you don't talk, simply hear, it will be beneficial.

Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Now you don't talk then. When I say... When I try to hear...

Prabhupāda: [chuckling] No, no. I say you, you simply hear. Don't talk.

Dr. Patel: All right. Ācchā.

Prabhupāda: Then you'll understand.

Dr. Patel: And then, then, then I want to make you talk, what will I do?

Prabhupāda: No. But your habit is as soon as we begin talks, immediately you talk.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Without hearing. And therefore you do not understand.

Dr. Patel: I think, uh... No, I think... What way I will make you talk? You tell me the way. I will make you talk...

Prabhupāda: And you'll hear first of all.

Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Let us hear.

Prabhupāda: Then I... You are simply patient. Then if you cannot understand, you'll inquire. Not that you will think, "I know better than him. Therefore I shall talk." It will never help you to understand.

Dr. Patel: Well, if you run away with the idea that I am thinking like that, it is wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are..., you are habituated to think like that.

Dr. Patel: I am habituated.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your...

Dr. Patel: Habit is... Habit is habit. But I have got all respect for you. Don't say that I am thinking that.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I know that. I know that.

Dr. Patel: That is... Don't run away with that idea that I am disrespecting you.

Prabhupāda: And therefore I am pointing out your defects.

Dr. Patel: That's all right. I am prepared to correct it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But you, you keep mum. If I don't excite, you don't speak. So which way I shall excite you? [laughter throughout]

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of excitement. When you put a question, I shall answer it from the śāstra. Just like it is..., it is any child can understand. If I ask a child, "What is this?" "Hand." "What is this?" "Head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say "Body"? So you are speaking less than a child. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Hmm. That is what I am. That is what I am. That is what I am.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any child, if you ask him, "My dear child, what is this?" he'll say, "It is hand." "What is this?" "It is head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "All body"? You are speaking like that.

Dr. Patel: Right... How shall I speak? Shall I beat your body?

Prabhupāda: No, no. [laughter] Don't speak.

Dr. Patel: Where is the right way?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" what he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child.

Dr. Patel: That is what I am.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Come on, Mr. Sar.

Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a bāṇiyā. He'll reserve his opinion.

Indian man (4): To answer the scripture... [break]

Prabhupāda: No, no. Vedic system is...

Indian man (3): You know, all these... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, śādhi māṁ prapannam. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. That is required.

Indian man (3): Guru expects from you that thing... [break]

Prabhupāda: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...

Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... [break]

Prabhupāda: According to our Vaiṣṇava principle, ādau gurvāśrayam: the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma-pṛcchā. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam: one should follow the footprints of the previous ācārya. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is ādau gurvāśrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may..., you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the śiṣya and the guru should meet together...

Dr. Patel: And don't talk.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, the guru..., I mean, the aspirant śiṣya will hear and study whether he's actually fit for becoming guru. Similarly, the guru will also study that whether he's actually fit for becoming a... Just like in our Society. We don't accept immediately. We don't give initiation immediately. First of all lives for some times. Then when he becomes eager, we give the first initiation, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then after one year, when he's fit, he's doing everything well, then we initiate him. This is our process. [break] Yes.

Dr. Patel: So if you don't hear near me, so that is the misfortune of all...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You are a learned gentleman.

Dr. Patel: He's learning.

Prabhupāda: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing.

Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. [break]

Indian man (3): You cannot argue what he says.

Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... [break]

Prabhupāda: That is nice.

Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship?

Prabhupāda: You should be fired always. [laughter] But if I do not say sometimes "nice," then it will be dangerous.

Dr. Patel: Then why you'll understand that this is all humbug?

Bhāgavata: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. So this is the qualification of chela. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijñāsu. What kind of jijñāsu? [Hindi] Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. "What is the best, ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru.

Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion = "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] That is good.

Prabhupāda: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here. Come here, guru." [laughter] Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of chela = jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, one who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires..., he requires a guru. And guru means, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the qualification. Śābde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Śābde pare ca. Niṣṇātam: he has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmaṇy upaśama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman, that's all. How simple it is, the qualification of chelā and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap = aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg. 2.11] = "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."

Dr. Patel: So you told me the same thing. Very good. I must be proud that I am going to be like Arjuna. That is what you mean to say.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the guru's... Guru's business is, when he talks much, he says, "All right, it is all right," but when he accepts guru---slaps.

Dr. Patel: Choke him up. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Yes. How mildly He says = aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś... [Bg. 2.11]. "You do not know what is what..."

Dr. Patel: "You are a fool."

Prabhupāda: "You are a fool number one." Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. He says, "A paṇḍita does not like this." That means, "You are a mūrkha." Indirectly He said, "A paṇḍita does not do this. Now you learn." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... [Bg. 2.13]. He began to speak Bhagavad-gītā.

Dr. Patel: Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti... [Bg. 2.11]

Prabhupāda: Nānuśocanti. The body, either dead or living, the paṇḍita has nothing to care about. But the whole world is taking care of the body.

Dr. Patel: Because the world is body conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are all... None of them are paṇḍitas. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is described as ass and cow.

Dr. Patel: Go-kharaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, go-kharaḥ. Yes. You have heard so many things. [break] ...buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Kalatrādiṣu, attached.

Dr. Patel: Wife and others.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. And land = "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Ijya, ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. [break] Now...

Dr. Patel: And Hindus... [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Go vā kharo vā. The same thing. Go is little useful because it supplies milk, and kharaḥ is useful, you overburden him.

Dr. Patel: No, we were giving milk of kharaḥ to the children in [indistinct] hospital.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because that is as good as the mother's milk.

Prabhupāda: Everything has got his use, but still, go-kharaḥ is go-kharaḥ.

Dr. Patel: This is also creation of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And useful.

Prabhupāda: No, useful.

Dr. Patel: Nothing, nothing which is not useful...

Prabhupāda: No, useful, that's all right. Again your coming to this, "Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa." That is not conclusion.

Dr. Patel: No, I did not say everything is again. You are misinterpreting me before these boys.

Prabhupāda: No, you'll come to that.

Dr. Patel: I don't come to that. I say everything is made by Kṛṣṇa which is useful. Nothing which is not useful is made by Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are pūrṇasya..., pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam [Īśo Invocation]. Everything created by Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. He does not create anything useless. Just like this seawater is salty. Why it is salty? If it is not salty, then it cannot be preserved. Therefore it is salty. You have to take water. But it is made salty. The process is... It is distilled by the sun, and then you are supplied. Just see how perfectly it is done. It is put onto the top of the hills, and it comes as river. This is God's creation.

Bhāgavata: Complete.

Prabhupāda: Complete, yes. Complete... Complete intelligence.

Bhāgavata: But we make it incomplete.

Dr. Patel: How can you make anything incomplete? You have no power to... [break]

Prabhupāda: We take instruction from the complete, Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: So don't say "we." We are nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We take instruction from the complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. [break] ...pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate.

Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you explain that? How will you explain that, thats...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still He's Kṛṣṇa. He's not impersonal. The Māyāvādī says, "Because Kṛṣṇa has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is finished." Because this is Māyāvāda. "Because Kṛṣṇa has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda philosophy. But the Upaniṣads say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: But even Bhāgavata I think says that even though He was born as... in body, He was still so in His eternal place there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is pūrṇa. It does not mean... Just like īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4]. "And still, don't think that I am there."

Dr. Patel: Avyakta-mūrtinā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Avyakta-mūrtinā. That is avyakta. His impersonal feature... His impersonal feature is avyakta. But His personal feature is vyakta.

Dr. Patel: His personal feature is in Goloka.

Prabhupāda: No. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He's always existing in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He's everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]. This is Kṛṣṇa conception.

Mākhanalāl: There was that one notable, so-called incarnation. He supposedly lost all his potency be...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mākhanalāl: He said he gave away all his potency...

Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. What potency he has got?

Dr. Patel: Who?

Prabhupāda: Any rascal who has called himself incarnation of God. There are so many rascals.

Mākhanalāl: Wasn't that Ramakrishna who said he gave away everything; he had nothing more except...

Prabhupāda: You want Ramakrishna.? Don't talk of these nonsense. Simply they have misled, that's all.

Dr. Patel: Simply you bhaja Kṛṣṇa and don't think anything else. And you get all your intelligence there.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has said, mām ekam. "Don't go to these foolish rascals." Mām ekam. Otherwise you'll be misled. Because they are misleaders, rascals.

Dr. Patel: You are so very hard.

Prabhupāda: I must be hard.

Dr. Patel: Hard, harsh, and hard and harsh...

Prabhupāda: The whole world is spoiled for these Māyāvādīs. Therefore I am very much hard.

Dr. Patel: What... I don't say hard. Hard and harsh...

Prabhupāda: No, we must be harder and harder.

Dr. Patel: Hard and harsh. Does matter...

Prabhupāda: I don't make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I'll never make that. Even if I don't get any disciple, I'll be satisfied. But I cannot make any compromise as these rascals. I cannot make. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasrasaḥ [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita]. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don't want many stars. That was my Guru Mahārāja's principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. [break]

Indian man (3): Do you mean the other persons...?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Own way one cannot understand rightly. That is another rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: Understanding God is always supraconscious with them. Never by the mind.

Prabhupāda: They... One has to rise, rise..., understand rightly from the right person. He cannot. He's imperfect. How he can understand rightly?

Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): But to reach that place there are several ways.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru.

Indian man (3): And with a clean slate.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (3): With a clean slate of his mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam [MU 1.2.12].

Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission.

Prabhupāda: Submission. Because...

Dr. Patel: And inquiry also.

Prabhupāda: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.

Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated

Prabhupāda: Yes. But the Westerners are not that. [break] ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many Western men.

Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): Inquiring is not bad. Inquiring of anything is...

Prabhupāda: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited.

Dr. Patel: That is how... Even the Einstein inquired himself so unchallengingly. That man was such a big mathematical genius... [break]

Prabhupāda: Knowledge cannot be acquired by challenge. Knowledge is acquired by submission. That is the process.

Dr. Patel: But I don't think I am challenging you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are taking?

Dr. Patel: I am fixing the aruṇi[?] with another aruṇi. So you tell these boys I'm not challenging you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am talking of the process, not of you personally. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise these people will go away with an idea that I am here to challenge you and your authority.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man (3): Nobody can challenge anybody. A Vaiṣṇava... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...thing is to be done submissively, praṇipātena. Two things. Inquiry must be guided by two things = submission and sevā.

Dr. Patel: First, according to Bhagavad-gītā, most important is śraddhā... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...jñānam. So that is the beginning. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ. Atha bhajana-kriyā. These are the step by step. Atha anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktis tato bhāvas sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the krama, krama panthā. Everything is there in our Vedic literature. One has to study cool-headed, and he'll get the things. [break] ...movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or spiritual consciousness is based on śraddhā. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. If one actually has śraddhā, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa says like this, then I'll accept Kṛṣṇa," that is śraddhā. "Kṛṣṇa says... Oh, Kṛṣṇa says like this. Why shall I surrender to Him?" that is not śraddhā. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. If one accepts this principle, then there is śraddhā. That is explained by Caitanya-caritāmṛta-kar:

śraddhā-śabde---viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya
kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya

[Cc. Madhya 22.62]

This is śraddhā. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa. Firm faith. "Yes, Kṛṣṇa has said that mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. I will accept it. I will accept it. Even I do not understand, I will accept it." That is called viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. And faith means kṛṣṇe bhakti: "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then my all perfection is there." This is called śraddhā.

Dr. Patel: I... Shall I ask you one thing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] As soon as...

Dr. Patel: What are the pāpas and what are the puṇyas?

Prabhupāda: Pāpa means so long you accept this material body.

Dr. Patel: Is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: Is pāpa. Either you accept as..., a material body as Brahmā or as insignificant ant, it is pāpa.

Dr. Patel: Anything is pāpa. Anything is pāpa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately.

Dr. Patel: And that is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: That is pāpa.

Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: That is what I could not understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Anything means this is also = Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender," and if I do not surrender, that is pāpa. [sound of kīrtana in background, approaching temple]

Indian lady (5): But serving to poor is serving the whole...

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Again that disease. It has become a disease.

Indian lady (5): No, I want to ask you. Is that called puṇya?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian lady (5): Serving the poor?

Prabhupāda: What is the use of your serving poor? Are you serving the poor? Why do you talk like that?

Indian lady (5): I want to ask you.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, are you serving the poor?

Indian lady (5): Yes, sir. I am a doctor. And we see only poverty. So I want to ask.

Prabhupāda: Then, then every... So every patient is a poor, and every doctor is puṇyavān.

Dr. Patel: Hah, every doctor is a fool. Like me.

Indian lady (5): No, I want to ask you. Swāmījī...

Dr. Patel: Swāmī, Swāmī answered.

Prabhupāda: This has become a slogan, "Serving the poor." Where is the śāstra? Where Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "Serving the poor?"

Indian lady (5): It doesn't say. No, I know. That's why I want to...

Prabhupāda: You are yourself poor. So how you can serve? [laughter]

Dr. Patel: [Gujarati]

Indian lady (5): No. Yes, I want to ask.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That's all right. We should... First of all, we should know that "I am the poorest of the poor."

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: So first of all let me become rich. Then I shall serve. [pause] [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa beat. [sound of kīrtana in background] People will come and hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. This slogan has spread, "If I serve the poor..." And what you have got, you will serve the poor? You have to work like an ass to earn your livelihood, and you are going to serve the poor.

Dr. Patel: [Gujarati] What is meant by service?

Prabhupāda: No, and the poor cannot be served. Service..., service to be rendered to the higher authority.

Indian man (3): By serving poor, you are serving yourself.

Prabhupāda: No. Serving nobody. Now, Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission... Just hear, doctor. Ah. Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission, when I went to America, I met him. He said that "The Americans are asking that 'You take money from us for serving the poor. But when we go to India, we simply see poor men are lying on the footpath. So what you are doing with this money?' " You see? This is a plea for collection of money, "to serve the poor." What... [break] Yes. I know in America there are so many foundations. You see? And there are so many cheats also. They form a society, and the managers of the foundation, they have got plea, and they get out all the money. I have seen it. Who was that? That Mr. Bogus? No, Bogart. Bogart. I used to call him "Mr. Bogus." [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Americans are very clever at using money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature, and the subject matter is India = "Oh, so many people are starving, so many being..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves.

Dr. Patel: They are the starvers.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhava-bhūti: Also, Prabhupāda, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I understand.

Dr. Patel: This is the psychology.

Prabhupāda: That I understand.

Dr. Patel: And they really are actually running away. They have no peace of mind. [break]

Prabhupāda: The other day one American devotee, he said, "Sir, I see..." He first came, "I see the poorest man here is happier than the richest man in my country." He said like that.

Dr. Patel: Because they have got no peace of mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And every...

Prabhupāda: And that is...

Dr. Patel: This, any act of competition is a sin and a violence against... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...competition even Kṛṣṇa. Krishnamurti's competition even Kṛṣṇa. You know that?

Dr. Patel: No, I didn't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Krishnamurti, I read a couple of books. He said that nothing..., everything...

Prabhupāda: Does he say anything about Kṛṣṇa?

Dr. Patel: Yes, he does say.

Prabhupāda: What does he say?

Dr. Patel: He says the Kṛṣṇa's all names are all..., God is also His name. Because the God, it is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no. What does he say about personal Kṛṣṇa? Does he know anything?

Bhāgavata: He said, "You are your own guru," Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is it.

Devotee: I have heard him.

Prabhupāda: You see? Kṛṣṇa says, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet... [MU 1.2.12]. [break] Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. He says, "Everyone is guru." Just see. "Everyone is guru," then why you are instructing? Why you are becoming guru?

Dr. Patel: He's not becoming guru of anybody.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why does he say that "You do this"? That is guru. Guru means one who orders. That is guru. That means you reject all other guru... That means... He means to say that "You reject all other gurus. Accept me guru." That's all.

Indian man (3): That is not... That is what he...

Prabhupāda: That is competition.

Indian man (3): All gurus are like that. All gurus are like that.

Bhava-bhūti: He's writing many books saying, "There's no need for books."

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Now see. He says, "There is no need of books," and he writes books, Kṛṣṇa books.

Indian man (3): Yes. Yes. Not even of Kṛṣṇa.

Bhāgavata: He said, "Everything is within you. So you are your own guru, and..."

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Bhāgavata: "...everything will be revealed to you."

Dr. Patel: It may be within him, all right. He must drag it out.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, just see how he is making nonsense competition. Just see.

Indian man (3): Vaśārambhaṇam[?].

Prabhupāda: Vaśārambhaṇam.

Dr. Patel: Vaśārambhaṇaṁ caro nāmadheyam[?]. [break]

Prabhupāda: He's writing books, and he says, "There is no need of books."

Indian man (3): He has written so many books, not one.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...nonsense. Directly. That's all. Our, our criterion is, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Kṛṣṇa says,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

So anyone we see that he does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he's a mūḍha.

Dr. Patel: Catur-vidhā bhajante mām... [Bg. 7.16]

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Dr. Patel: I think we are of one of those four categories. Or we are also mūḍha?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: No. At least, give us some name. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: You are, you are catur-vidhā.

Indian man (3): Arthārthī.

Prabhupāda: Not arthārthī. Jñānī. [laughter] No, I must give the proper position. Jñānī...

Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys, at least.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. [laughter] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the maṅgala-ārati? This is the proof.

Dr. Patel: That is..., we are, we are brought up like that from our...

Prabhupāda: That is..., that means you are pious.

Indian man (3): You are pious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Śucīnāṁ sukṛtāṁ gṛhe.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): Yoga-bhraṣṭa vijayate.

Dr. Patel: Yoga-bhraṣṭa. We must have been yoga-bhraṣṭa in the past. [break]

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mākhanalāl: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so-called professor, Baba Ram Das. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him.

Prabhupāda: But he's talking.

Mākhanalāl: Yes. But he's talking.

Prabhupāda: He's talking. These are the defects.

Dr. Patel: Huh?

Prabhupāda: Some rascal has said that "There is no need of talking." But this is also talking, "There is no need of talking." So why he's talking?

Dr. Patel: Just a rascal says, "There is no need of cutting."

Prabhupāda: No. That is another thing.

Mākhanalāl: But he is trying to... [break]

Prabhupāda: Sevayā praṇipātena. Sevayā. [break]

Dr. Patel: I, I... Do you like it? I have to ask you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you so much.

Dr. Patel: Do you like it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: We have made it for you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: All this... How do you like?

[break] [kīrtana] [end]