Room Conversation , Bombay , 1974-03-20
Prabhupāda: ...a disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious [indistinct] is an opiate of..., they call? It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana. To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will not patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls, and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come, then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for pan... I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and...
Indian man: Signatures of them.
Prabhupāda: Many thousand, many lakhs. And this is one point... And we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad-gītā, that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna [Bg. 7.16]. Bhajana, bhajante, this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ. And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ, miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious men, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as... It is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. These are the symptoms of mahātmās. So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā? And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām: always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is... You come forward. You are all educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul..., your culture. It is not 'your,' 'our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the..., [indistinct] kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana, one become free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra, and we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to make propaganda. And let them come, at least, Sunday morning. And... [referring to fan?] It is roaming like this?
Indian man: Eh?
Prabhupāda: It is revolving?
Devotee: [indistinct] Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita.
Indian man: I think we can also fix it.
Prabhupāda: No, revolving is...
Indian man: You want revolving? Is it on?
Devotee: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good, though.
Prabhupāda: What, this will be propaganda, and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that "Here the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signature. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective if sent.
Indian man: ...jī? May I submit a matter?
Indian man: This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends, and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and, on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by..., of our reconsidering, we lose nothing.
Indian man: By writing them a petition.
Prabhupāda: But if... It has no effect.
Indian man: I don't say it has no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider, because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice...
Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to go; public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance; essential.
Indian man: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people, that the bhajanas and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because...
Prabhupāda: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras.
Indian man: So therefore... You see, the authors of the śāstras..., śāstra big authors, who are good so-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras, but the government, which is so-called secular or pro-Muslim and pro-Communist...
Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your one śāstra.
Indian man: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not...
Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court.
Indian man: Therefore... I'm coming round that. What I say on the prima facie, the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is flowing. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The petition was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck, and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of decision, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was..., I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said "may be." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said, "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. "It may be." That means the option is equally open = "May not be," also. That's only a review has been taken without any basis of that...
Prabhupāda: That is your second item.
Indian man: And our... I'll finish; I'm coming on that. Now, third is = is the Constitution rights. Now, under the Constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the Constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal; it is not for any sector.
Prabhupāda: [about fan] It is not moving like that, revolving?
Satsvarūpa: No, the other one is not working.
Indian man: I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. But make it full force. This is full? [sound of loud fan coming on]
Yaśomatīnandana: This revolves, but I don't know how.
Prabhupāda: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There..., there is no Indian.
Indian man: That's what will come in the way.
Indian man: That will come in the way. That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians.
Prabhupāda: No, "You should have," but no Indians are coming.
Indian man: No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know.
Prabhupāda: No, we cannot appoint. That is not... That is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless.
Indian man: Paid... Appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them.
Prabhupāda: So who is honorary coming? They are also honorary, but who is dedicating...
Indian man: So you should have in India those people...
Prabhupāda: "I should have" means you, if you become "should have." Otherwise...
Indian man: I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody...
Prabhupāda: Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian-educated youths are come? They are not interested.
Indian man: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some...
Prabhupāda: Then that... No, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the... But in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes, that if they make it without... Just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that... There, they understand that these Americans making this satyagraha, as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out."
Indian man: Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners, because that will be against them. What I was meaning to... They should be...
Prabhupāda: That should be taken. Therefore I say hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll...
Indian man: No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians.
Prabhupāda: No, organize... They have actually come to me. They are attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are... Just like in Africa, they are junglis.
Indian man: Uncivilized.
Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India, where the civilization is supposed to be so... And actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that "Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what..., how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad-gītā... Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti... [Bg. 7.16] Gandhi was chanting in temple raghupati rāghava. So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana, take prasādam, and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and... I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā. And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance. Essential, we want it. And the other thing, we are making gate in and out two gates... Submit a plan like that, that this is... There will be no... That may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architects, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come..." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasādam, and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. But then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha, and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so.
Indian man: Yes, Rajasthan.
Prabhupāda: Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come, and we are firing. And the... Your sva-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government.
Indian man: One has to snatch the justice from them.
Indian man: Not by begging our mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people what they have done. All they have got this liberty, or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise, the government has the majority in the assembly. Congress Party has a majority [indistinct] how they will be able to desolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be desolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, unconstitutional method has been adopted because they...
Prabhupāda: And they have smashed the speaking.
Indian man: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: The Hindustan people lied doing that.
Indian man: Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty.
Prabhupāda: What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the...
Indian man: And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here...
Prabhupāda: No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall.
Indian man: Yes. A big halls or a paṇḍal as we had held two years back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Indian man: I don't know how you have got the sanction.
Indian man: And there the people can come in the thousands and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already said.
Indian man: ...on the neighboring stand, we should raise...
Prabhupāda: No, we request them that "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not... Why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad-gītā. What is the...? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands.
Indian man: Last year or two years back, we had lots of [indistinct] central playground [indistinct].
Indian man: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Make that. Let them have saṅkīrtana. Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a... "Better late than never." But this propaganda should be done. [break] Now..., now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple place hundred chairs so that many people cannot stand; they will sit comfortable without..., with the..., with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasādam, whatever you can. "Please take prasādam." Give him plate. Make this way.
Indian man: What I was saying apart from all that... In my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a Life Member. But as a Life Member I can help on the police commissioner also.
Indian man: In writing, I can help on the police commissioner.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come.
Indian man: Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a Life Member of our relation.
Prabhupāda: No, not as our lawyer.
Indian man: That... No, I say...
Prabhupāda: On your personal capacity. Yes.
Indian man: I say.
Prabhupāda: Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that.
Indian man: "As a Life Member, I am suffering because of this reason, that if there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually."
Prabhupāda: No, you can go to other temple.
Indian man: No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied?
Prabhupāda: Then you are spiritually not improving.
Indian man: I beg your pardon?
Prabhupāda: Then you are not spiritually improving.
Indian man: No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them.
Prabhupāda: That is not very strong reason.
Indian man: No, but what I say, they may be strong, but I say I am stronger than them.
Prabhupāda: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the...
Indian man: No, no. I...
Prabhupāda: ...that your idea means our idea, carried.
Indian man: Not necessarily. [break]
Prabhupāda: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion.
Indian man: Certainly, it's my honest opinion.
Prabhupāda: But the thing is, I want to do something solid.
Indian man: No, but what I say is my...
Prabhupāda: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much.
Indian man: No, but, uh, I am hopeful.
Prabhupāda: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that...
Indian man: Unless they have got some...
Indian man: The [indistinct] Delhi.
Indian man: Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi.
Indian man: You see, if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans...
Prabhupāda: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs.
Indian man: But if they will logically...
Prabhupāda: Logic---there is no logic.
Indian man: No, but what I say... If they are appeased...
Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword.
Indian man: No, but what I say... The basic problem is that the central against, if the [indistinct] man, is against...
Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against.
Indian man: If the [indistinct] men is against, therefore they are disclosing their weakness.
Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that... Many politicians have said. In London, the High Commissioner, he said, "Swāmījī, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharashtrian, Pant. Pant. So... But we cannot do anything of this way.
Indian man: No, but if the cental is against, then my logic says...
Prabhupāda: Central is against.
Indian man: If the central is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi?
Indian man: Then how we have got a permission in Delhi?
Prabhupāda: What is that permission?
Indian man: Temple permission building.
Yaśomatīnandana: We don't have... We haven't built a temple in Delhi.
Indian man: We don't have a temple in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man: Then what about the permission in the Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Māyāpur, that doesn't require any permission.
Indian man: What?
Prabhupāda: That doesn't require any permission. That is the village.
Indian man: Ācchā. And what about this Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: That also, they gave permission with great difficulty.
Indian man: Hyderabad?
Prabhupāda: Hyderabad, I do not know.
Yaśomatīnandana: Hyderabad is easier, because the people are very much in favor of us.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year, Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city is so... Formerly, it was planned that "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city?
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there.
Indian man: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena?
Prabhupāda: That is very good.
Indian man: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner, from breaking the temple.
Indian man: Breaking the temple.
Prabhupāda: But one thing is... My fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go."
Indian man: [indistinct] India.
Prabhupāda: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why... They will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals svāmīs have told them, "Yes..."
Indian man: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India.
Indian man: As you rightly say, that if we do anything actively, then they may see your boys going out of India, foreigners, Americans.
Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us.
Indian man: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground, and they will say that "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons.
Prabhupāda: Any reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you."
Indian man: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, or try to get another places, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys.
Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda---preach.
Indian man: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them.
Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting.
Yaśomatīnandana: We are not going to preach against them.
Indian man: No, no, here...
Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy.
Indian man: No, but then your philosophy is only, you see... You are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking the signatures. Thousands.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say...
Indian man: Even though you do not say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals.
Yaśomatīnandana: So then they...
Indian man: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India."
Yaśomatīnandana: But it's clear agitation. If we are...
Indian man: [indistinct] ...propaganda of collecting the signatures... [break]
Yaśomatīnandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with...
Prabhupāda: Who is arranging for this higher level? [aside:] Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? Eh? But you do not know. This, you [indistinct] never close... [end]