Morning Walk, "Varṇāśrama College" , Vṛndāvana , 1974-03-14
Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college.
Satsvarūpa: For the public in general?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student must be ready to take up the training.
Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?
Hṛdayānanda: For a particular age group?
Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the Fathers teaches.
Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula?
Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training.
Hṛdayānanda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varṇa? Such as, say...
Hṛdayānanda: Say, for example, someone was a, a kṣatriya by inclination, or a...?
Prabhupāda: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world, but... being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varṇāśrama college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Come to classes you won't get, because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would...
Hṛdayānanda: Boarding school.
Hṛdayānanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught, like in gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.
Nitāi: Taught business also?
Nitāi: The vaiśyas?
Prabhupāda: Business, this rascal business, no.
Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell sity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and..., where there is nec No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Huh? Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: What kind of training is there for a śūdra?
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is general assistant.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, just...
Prabhupāda: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this," that's all.
Satsvarūpa: What would he learn in the school, though?
Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārātrika. And balance---he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly, there is no limit.
Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Yadubara: What class does the arts and crafts come under?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Śūdra.
Prabhupāda: They are śūdras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the śūdras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts.
Yadubara: Hmm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the whole people, population, is śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: It is a fact.
Prabhupāda: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are śūdras. [break]
Hṛdayānanda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life.
Hṛdayānanda: In our society... [break] ...accepted as a philosopher.
Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, the artist.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... [break]
Prabhupāda: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy.
Prabhupāda: That, in your Western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. [break] ...human being. You see? What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... [break] We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy.
Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha [Bg. 7.16]. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali = vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because Western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole Western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇḍālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human being. Don't mind, I am using very strong words. That is the fact.
Hṛdayānanda: It's true. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand..., hand, animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them, mlecchas and yavanas. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the mlecchas and yavanas, by training, you are becoming more than a brāhmaṇa. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śantaye. The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. Prakopayati na śantaye. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānām. The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam [Nīti Śāstra]. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the Western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varṇāśrama school required.
Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, in this varṇāśrama college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...?
Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. History, we simply read Mahābhārata, history of the great men, Pāṇḍavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they are reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira.
Prabhupāda: Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way?
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so...
Prabhupāda: Hmm? History must be for great person. This is history.
Hṛdayānanda: So in our varṇāśrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...
Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.
Hṛdayānanda: What he kills.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can..., they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma, not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇḍālas.
Hṛdayānanda: But never the cow.
Prabhupāda: No. Cow... The śūdras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, Goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇḍī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life---marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men?
Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.
Satsvarūpa: So they don't attend varṇāśrama college.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Varṇāśrama college especially meant for the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education---śūdra must. That's all. They should assist the higher class.
Hṛdayānanda: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.
Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?
Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia...
Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're only animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.
Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The first of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.
Hṛdayānanda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gītā and...
Hṛdayānanda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But our..., our position is that we are above varṇāśrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above varṇāśrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varṇa and āśrama.
But we have to show these rascal. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything that the Yakṣa-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe, but he made that "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to varṇāśrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā sṛṣṭam. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with varṇāśrama. Similarly, if we act as varṇāśrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varṇāśrama.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, can you say something about the training for a brāhmaṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are satyaṁ śamaḥ damaḥ. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind..., śamo damaḥ... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyaṁ śamo damaḥ śaucam [Bg. 18.42]. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?
Prabhupāda: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, they'll be teachers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. General teacher class will be the brāhmaṇas. It doesn't matter what he's teaching, but teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a brāhmaṇa. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brāhmaṇa should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda: So brāhmaṇa can teach how to fight?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Brāhmaṇa means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.
Satsvarūpa: This is all very new.
Satsvarūpa: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.
Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn it all.
Prabhupāda: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to with mop the floor.
Satsvarūpa: Then it becomes easy.
Prabhupāda: But I must know everything, because I am a teacher.
Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama..., say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...
Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.
Viṣṇujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brāhmaṇas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.
Viṣṇujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and plowing.
Hṛdayānanda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the..., at the present time in the...
Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are śūdras or less than śūdras. They are not human being. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is Western or Eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up... So the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work?
Viṣṇujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subject, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method---varṇāśrama.
Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general---you've made some exceptions---but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a particular...
Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.
Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdra, they want, so that is our prescription = "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So others will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago, if somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.
Yadubara: How would the kṣatriyas kill the animals?
Yadubara: How would they kill? With guns, or bow and arrow?
Prabhupāda: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kṣatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivrāja, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or He did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine, if it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on leg, and you are traveling in the jet plane?" shall I have to take that ideal? [chuckling] These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men; it can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men.
Viṣṇujana: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of...
Prabhupāda: No. We are not going to. But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it.
Viṣṇujana: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Just like we do not want money, but they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and build a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them prasādam. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is sannyāsī.
Viṣṇujana: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not...
Viṣṇujana: ...that we live there and...
Prabhupāda: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat."
Viṣṇujana: Then there'll be wide criticism.
Prabhupāda: That is... This is not good.
Prabhupāda: You should remain always sannyāsī within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varṇāśrama. We are not varṇāśrama; we are above varṇāśrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?
Prabhupāda: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brāhmaṇas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? Therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.
Hṛdayānanda: The vaiśya students will produce the food.
Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go.
Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away.
Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.
Hṛdayānanda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years.
Hṛdayānanda: They can start at ten to twelve?
Prabhupāda: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varṇāśrama college.
Viṣṇujana: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Organize that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall go.
Viṣṇujana: This Mahārāja is also going to New Vrindaban.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Viṣṇujana: He can...
Prabhupāda: Do that. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you, and combined together, do that.
Prabhupāda: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work.
Viṣṇujana: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...?
Viṣṇujana: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world.
Viṣṇujana: That's most auspicious.
Prabhupāda: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain.
Viṣṇujana: For example, in my program...
Prabhupāda: Budhaḥ. Budhaḥ. Eh? Yes?
Viṣṇujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacārīs in buses and everything, and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how will they be able to accept the knowledge in the books?
Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...in separate department.
Passer-by: Rādhe, Rādhe!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting "Rādhe, Rādhe."
Viṣṇujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were...
Prabhupāda: This is India.
Prabhupāda: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in Western countries.
Hṛdayānanda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added.
Parivrājakācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Parivrājakācārya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such a program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...?
Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not..., we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.
Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.
Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it, because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party = "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute---for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.
Hṛdayānanda: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...?
Prabhupāda: They should be engaged.
Hṛdayānanda: Should they be trained in a particular...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plow department, agriculture.
Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...
Prabhupāda: Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the..., fill up the gap. Proxy.
Hṛdayānanda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students, to come to our college.
Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is question of poverty, they'll come.
Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life, so-called education---sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: So they should be trained to rise early and so on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er, rise early. But if you... Because you have lost all..., what is called? Stamina?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore sleeping is my own business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghāma, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghāma and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghāma means perspiration. [break] ...principle. And human being means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. [break] ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No? Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately = "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see? Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animal. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. [break] ...example that they have started that United Nation. What they have done actually, United Nation? Eh?
Prabhupāda: Have they done anything progressive?
Prabhupāda: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nation." All nation, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? [laughter] So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace? They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So study this institution.
Viṣṇujana: Thirty years now.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nation, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43], humbug program, and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁha-deva. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. [break] ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them, because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. [break] ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for Me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a śūdra how to work like this, you have become a śūdra. You are not śūdras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a śūdra how to work like a śūdra. [break] ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?
Viṣṇujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training kṣatriyas, they're training...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning...
Prabhupāda: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula.
Viṣṇujana: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired.
Parivrājakācārya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already...
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there.
Viṣṇujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here in India there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide, that will be accepted in the court. Pañcāyeta. It is called pañcāyeta system. [break] You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are..., some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings.
Viṣṇujana: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Viṣṇujana: ...and turn it into a society.
Hṛdayānanda: Ah, that's wonderful.
Satsvarūpa: Many times our devotees get cheated in business dealings by inexperience. So should they learn, from...
Prabhupāda: How to cheat others. [laughter]
Satsvarūpa: No, not how to cheat, but from experienced devotees how to not be cheated?
Prabhupāda: Why should you go to a person who cheats you? [end]