Morning Walk , Bombay , 1974-02-20

Prabhupāda: ...and happiness also. That is my experience. I always said that "You are so much graced by God in so many ways."

Dr. Patel: [Hindi]

Mr. Sar: What karma?

Dr. Patel: No, no. They, they [Hindi] ...servant. [break]

Mr. Sar: ...yad gatvā, tam eva āgaccha, mama tejo 'ṁśa-sambhavam [Bg. 10.41].

Dr. Patel: That is why they have got all these things. So God is there, He says.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam.

Prabhupāda: At least, preliminary condition for being in touch with God is there. Because Kṛṣṇa says, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna [Bg. 7.16]. So they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means they are pious.

Mr. Sar: Yes, sukṛtinaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Sukṛti.

Mr. Sar: Otherwise you cannot be bhakta.

Prabhupāda: And, and the result of sukṛti, piety, is janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [SB 1.8.26]. Janma, to take birth, to take birth in nice family. And aiśvarya, riches. And... Janmaiśvarya-śruta, education, and śrī, beauty. All these four things are in America. There every boy, every girl is nicely educated, qualified, artist.

Dr. Patel: That last hundred years' generation of America, very honest people.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: Extremely honest and extremely righteous. That is why the generation is good. This last hundred years...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: ...we have been very fond of America. We have been taking great example of Americans during last hundred years. Now they have started degenerating. And that happens with everyone.

Prabhupāda: But the...

Dr. Patel: British degenerated, so they must degenerate.

Prabhupāda: Degenerating means...

Dr. Patel: Degeneration must come. [indistinct] It's not so-called revolution.

Prabhupāda: So they are...

Dr. Patel: [indistinct] they degenerate for others. So that [indistinct] degenerate. We degenerated. So the Muslims degenerated. Americans will degenerate. Somebody else will degenerate. Is that sort of a will? No?

Prabhupāda: So janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [SB 1.8.26]---good birth, riches, education and sri, beauty---these are the result of pious activities.

Dr. Patel: When you say the present education and all... But this education has created those boys, smoking carasa[?] and gañjā and bhāṅga...

Prabhupāda: That is not a university education. That is due to their coming to India.

Dr. Patel: They are...? They come to India and... They don't do it there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, they come here for spiritual enlightenment, and they meet these rascals, gañjā-eater sādhus. That is the beginning.

Dr. Patel: But they have introduced that in American universities.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I know. This is the beginning. They learned this... They thought that this is spiritualism.

Dr. Patel: I thought they have taught us.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Jayapatākā: No, they imported...

Prabhupāda: Your gañjā, gañjā-smoker, these so-called sādhus and just like..., they have done this. By following these rascals, they are doing it. But they do not know who is sādhu...

Dr. Patel: And LSD was invented by Indians, no?

Mr. Sar: [indistinct] ...other thing, you know. [Hindi]

Indian man (1): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: I thought all these things, intoxicants, are universal. Not only Indians.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. In the...

Dr. Patel: Even, even, even, it...

Prabhupāda: No, no, in...

Dr. Patel: It was inculcated into the civilization of China.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This I know definitely. The hippies, the hippies came to India. The hippies...

[Dr. Patel and the Indian men argue in background]

Dr. Patel: All these... No, no, no! These are all come from America, sir. If you say like that, I am not going back, sir, day!

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. The gañjā, gañjā was not in America.

Dr. Patel: That, that is not! But...

Prabhupāda: That I am speaking. Unless they... [everyone yelling at once]

Dr. Patel: He says that LSD has been invented in India.

Indian man (1): No, no! I never said these things!

Dr. Patel: Don't...! Don't pervert the things! Swāmījī, I am very hot on wrong things and lies! This is an utter lie if you even say so that LSD was invented in America. I am a scientist.

Mr. Sar: That is right.

Dr. Patel: And it has been used by American boys. And a professor of American university is a friend of mine. And he has been taken horrible things about American boys. And you are talking LSD has been invented in India!

Indian man (1): No! I am talking...

Dr. Patel: Don't talk all these things!

Indian man (1): No, I am talks, sir... I am only talking of...

Dr. Patel: No, this is very wrong. Untruth is as good as a daitya. Truth is God. Truth is Kṛṣṇa. Truthfulness. So how it may be? What do you say, sir?

Prabhupāda: No, no. When we say gañjā was started from here, it is God or not?

Indian man (1): That's all...

Dr. Patel: Gañjā is God. What is that? In gañjā also you'll get that, that, that state of samādhi. Those who get it, they get it. I mean, that is all right. But you said like that, that LSD is invented in India.

Indian man (1): No! I never said LSD. Why you are putting...?

Prabhupāda: No, no. When they started gañjā... When they started gañjā... They were scientific men. They wanted to make scientific chemicals out of it.

Dr. Patel: That's right. That's right. That is the right thing. I mean, truth you must have... Always a lot of truth...

Prabhupāda: But the...

Dr. Patel: Don't talk all these things. I cannot tolerate a lie, falsehood of bāṇiyās. I am a first-class enemy of falsehood. For truth I am prepared to get hanged. That is very wrong to tell that LSD was invented in India.

Indian man (1): No, I never said that LSD...

Dr. Patel: Tum bola.

Indian man (1): No, no, no, no, no. That is a... [Hindi] That is the mistake, you see, of the...

Dr. Patel: All right, I am quiet. Lay down now. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: No, actually, this is a fact. This gañjā smoking, they have learned from India.

Dr. Patel: No, but gañjā, they say, some of the people say that you come in such a trance. It's an artificial trance.

Prabhupāda: They say also like that.

Dr. Patel: Hmm. These boys.

Prabhupāda: They... These hippies, they also say that by marijuana... They call marijuana... They call marijuana? Or what is called?

Devotees: Marijuana.

Prabhupāda: Marijuana. So they learned this gañjā smoking... They came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they do not know who can give them spiritual enlightenment. They went to these rascals, gañjā-smoker, having long beard...

Dr. Patel: But there is a great smuggling racket the whole world, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: No, no. When they... I know that Allen Ginsberg, he learned this...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in India.

Prabhupāda: But he's a great poet. He learned this gañjā smoking from India.

Dr. Patel: The English boys, the French boys, the Germans, all of them have started in the... They don't come here as hippies. This is an international disease.

Prabhupāda: They learned from America. That's a fact. The hippie movement started from America.

Dr. Patel: Now, hippie movement started from America. That means they started first. Not after coming to India...

Prabhupāda: But they learned it from India.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: They came here... I have got many students, they came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they learned gañjā smoking and keeping high, big beard. You know, there is a sannyāsa āśrama in Delhi, and people contribute them gañjā. Not only they; I know... My father, he was also attached to so many sannyāsīs. So in Kālī-ghāṭa, there was a sannyāsī...

Dr. Patel: Sannyāsīs, those nāgā-bābās, they smoke.

Prabhupāda: Not nāgā... He was a regular sannyāsī, Māyāvādī sannyāsī. So my father was giving them the saffron cloth and gañjā. People accept it that this is one of the items.

Dr. Patel: That gañjā should be given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, so badly impressed. So this gañjā-smoking has spread all over the world as the hippie movement.

Dr. Patel: I thought that the hippies started from those, this [indistinct] part.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The hippie movement was started from India. You see so many gañjā-smokers, they are sādhus, bābā-sādhu.

Dr. Patel: Bābās also, those nāgā-bābās, they all smoke...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Nāgā and also "sāgā[?]" also. All of them gañjā-... [laughs]

Indian man (1): But, uh, but, uh...

Prabhupāda: Eh? In Calcutta there was a big poet, Girish Chandra Ghosh. Perhaps you heard his name.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He started Indian state. He was a first-class gañjā smoker.

Dr. Patel: They get in a trance, and...

Prabhupāda: That, that... You have got appreciation for this trance.

Dr. Patel: They have got a trance. They get a trance...

Prabhupāda: You are, you are smelling.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You never condemn it.

Dr. Patel: I won't condemn it if it is good, and if it is bad, I will condemn it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is bad.

Dr. Patel: Every bad thing has good also. Some good quality must be there.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: So they have taken to it. I don't...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Just like opium. Opium, for common man, it is bad. But you are a physician; you can use opium, tincture opium, for some certain use.

Dr. Patel: Therefore I say.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Dr. Patel: Same thing, I say. The same I say.

Prabhupāda: But they are not physicians. They are ordinary men.

Dr. Patel: So it is bad for them.

Prabhupāda: What is... What is... What is food for one is poison for another.

Dr. Patel: Yes. That is what I said. The worst poisons have got the best qualities in them for saving lives. That is my point and that is what I was speaking of.

Prabhupāda: So when it is ruining life, how you can say it the best?

Dr. Patel: But it doesn't save the live of someone?

Prabhupāda: That I know also. But that is in different use. You cannot take. Just like even a snake poison, venomous, that is also used for saving lives. But that does not mean the snake is good.

Dr. Patel: I mean it is not good for majority.

Prabhupāda: I am talking of the majority.

Dr. Patel: Everything made by God is made with an intention of...

Prabhupāda: No, no. We are talking of the majority, not of the small minority.

Dr. Patel: All is..., everything is made by God with intentions of fulfillment of His līlā or māyā or whatever you call it. No? And all these, all these auṣadhīs, these cārās, what do you call, the vanaspati-auṣadhīs, they have also venomous poison in them.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Vanauṣadhī loke jayate paramam[?].

Dr. Patel: So many, so many plants are extremely poisonous. And the real poisonous plants are the plants which give the best medicine. As for example, digoxen[?], digitalis, life-saving in heart disease. If you eat a leaf, you will die.

Prabhupāda: Then, just like in your dispensary, you keep everything medicine. But it is to be given to different person, different medicine. Not that because it is medicine you give to everyone.

Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say is that this pān or what you call it, gañjā, they might have used used by some for a good aim. But it has been misused by a majority of men.

Prabhupāda: So they are innocent people. They have imitated. Our these so-called sādhu says that Lord Śiva used to smoke gañjā. That is their... So they have become Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva drunk the whole poison ocean, and he kept it here. So you drink one drop of poison. But these rascals, they compare with Śiva, with Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa danced with girls. Therefore we must have." These Māyāvādīs do that. I know.

Dr. Patel: You are... You have to... I've been... That is what I have, as one of the members of the Vaiṣṇava family, think, that you have to worship God not with the body consciousness but with the soul consciousness. Then there is no question of Kṛṣṇa dancing with girls. It is a higher soul embracing the lower souls to Him. Plain it has been...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Dr. Patel: That is what we have been taught from our early days.

Prabhupāda: These rascals, they do not know what is Kṛṣṇa or what is Kṛṣṇa's behavior.

Dr. Patel: And that is right. Even for them. I have no objection if you call me a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: Yes, a Māyāvādī. I know.

Dr. Patel: I have no objection...

Prabhupāda: I know! I know certainly. I challenge you.

Dr. Patel: Always.

Prabhupāda: In Karachi, there was Oṁ-sampradāya. And they were calling for young girls and your...

Dr. Patel: That is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes! That, the Māyāvādī. That Māyāvādī. Because he thought himself that "I am Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: That is where we differ, Vaiṣṇavas. Because we take Kṛṣṇa's līlā...

Prabhupāda: Just you hear me. He thought himself that "I am Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Nobody is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So I am talking that. So he was a pākkā Māyāvādī. And gentlemen were offering their daughters and their wives to dance.

Indian man (2): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Indian man (2): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] I'll kick you on them face!

Indian man (2): [Hindi conversation]

Dr. Patel: Because it has been wrongly explained, this whole...

Prabhupāda: Therefore these kind of things are done by the Māyāvādīs.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa-līlā is not explained properly by any...

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs!

Dr. Patel: ...other thing than the Vaiṣṇavas. All is wrongly understood by all other fellows excepting Vaiṣṇavas, true Vaiṣṇavas. That Kṛṣṇa, as He was Supersoul...

Prabhupāda: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has condemned these rascal Māyāvādīs = māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī [Cc. Madhya 17.129]. The greatest offender to Kṛṣṇa is these Māyāvādīs. Greatest offenders.

Indian man (3): [Hindi conversation]

Prabhupāda: There are so many. Even in...

Dr. Patel: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Even in... I do not wish to say. Even this Kalyāṇa, Kalyāṇa, Kalyāṇa proprietor, that Goenka.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Goenka.

Prabhupāda: He was doing that, in Calcutta. Govinda Bhavan.

Dr. Patel: Goenka?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: This Goenka.

Prabhupāda: Not this Goenka. That...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Gorakhpur, Gītā Press.

Prabhupāda: He was a pākkā Māyāvādī.

Indian man (4): Gītā Press?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Oh, that Goenka of Gītā Press.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Indian man (4): [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: No. That is because of degeneration of the lower fellows. They are not understanding the real teaching of Bhāgavata.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have heard about that, about the Vallabha-sampradāya. Yes. I do not know whether it is fact. I have heard.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. About...?

Dr. Patel: He belonged to Vallabha-sampradāya.

Prabhupāda: I do not know. I have heard that after marriage the girl was offered to guru.

Mr. Sar: No, that is not in Vallabha-sampradāya.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no.

Mr. Sar: No, on ours... Not on Gujarat side.

Dr. Patel: Nowhere, nowhere. It is all hearsay. I don't think it would be possible.

Mr. Sar: You see, it is a...

Dr. Patel: Maybe a lower community...

Mr. Sar: No, no. Ignorant folk may be decepted like that when they say, "Well, I am Kṛṣṇa, you are gopīs. So let us enjoy."

Prabhupāda: Ah! Ah!

Mr. Sar: So ignorant folks... No, no. I tell you, this is the ignorant folks. That is likely to happen in all religions.

Prabhupāda: No. Our Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura punished one Viṣikiṣeṇa. I'll tell that story. It is a fact. One avatāra came. And he was doing that in the village. And they complained to the police officer, and it went to the High Commissioner. And then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was that time magistrate. So the Commissioner knew that he is a pious man, so he entrusted the matter. And it was a long story. I'll tell you some time.

Mr. Sar: No, no. The founders were well intentioned, but then, after these followers, you see, they only looked to the rituals and not to the spirit...

Prabhupāda: No, I don't...

Mr. Sar: You know, they forget that this will be sukṛtina. Bhakta should be sukṛtina first, and then bhakta. That they forget. So it happens, you see, in all the...

Prabhupāda: No, this thinking, that "I am as good as Kṛṣṇa," this Māyāvāda philosophy has done so much havoc.

Dr. Patel: The highest philosophy of all is that you must give your ego. So there is no question of "I" remaining there. Even in bhakti-yoga and in jñāna-yoga, the real jñāna-yoga... Falsehood, anything can be... Even in bhakti-mārga also there are rascals, you know, who have done all sorts of humbug things.

Yaśodānandana: They are Māyāvādīs.

Prabhupāda: They were Māyāvādīs. The bhakti-mārga... They call bhakti-mārga. They are actually Māyāvādī.

Dr. Patel: So you can get that degeneration from anywhere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the philosophy that Kṛṣṇa actually never danced with the gopīs, but Kṛṣṇa's the Supersoul and the gopīs are souls, but there is actually no dancing; that is simply allegory.

Prabhupāda: Who says that?

Dr. Patel: I say.

Prabhupāda: That is also Māyāvāda.

Dr. Patel: I say it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says it.

Dr. Patel: And I, I, I own it of Māyāvādī. With your grace, I own it. [Prabhupāda chuckles] I... I... Isn't Kṛṣṇa Supersoul? Isn't you a soul?

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: Have you not to worship Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: But that, that, that...

Dr. Patel: ...as a soul and not as a body?

Prabhupāda: That philosophy, that Kṛṣṇa never danced...

Dr. Patel: That is wrong.

Prabhupāda: That is wrong.

Dr. Patel: That is wrong. That is wrong. But you have to worship Him as a soul...

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: ...and not as a body. If you worship Him as a body, with a body consciousness, I would not associate. I would not associate with you.

Prabhupāda: No, that is mūḍha. That is mūḍha.

Dr. Patel: Ah! But some of these boys have been thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says Himself that avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. He is never this body. He has no distinction between... That has been done, analyzed by Māyāvādī scholar, Dr. Radhakrishnan. When Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], he, he, I mean to say, warns, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." That means he is making distinction between Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's inside. So he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and he's writing comment on Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. It's going on. [Hindi aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Yaśomatīnandana: Actually, this is so true, Prabhupāda, because even in the Western world, they are Christians, they may be fallen Christians, but they don't think they are Christ. They may be fallen. They may not follow the principles...

Prabhupāda: They say "Christ is God."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they also make mistakes.

Prabhupāda: They also make that mistake.

Yaśomatīnandana: No, they are mistaken. That is, they understand their position is servant, but...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This, this philosophy, that there's allegory, that Kṛṣṇa never danced with gopīs, that...

Prabhupāda: That is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...directly leads to Māyāvādī philosophy.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Indian man (4): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: He knows also.

Indian man (4): I know also. He spoiled so many girls, you see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have gone to him so many times in Calcutta.

Indian man (4): [Hindi] This is the story of before ten or fifteen years old.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, and now he's at the head of that Gītā Press.

Prabhupāda: Hiralal.

Indian man: No, no, no, no, no. Not that Goenka. That is different. [Hindi]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but Prabhupāda was speaking of that one.

Bhava-bhūti: It was Gandhi who said that Arjuna was the soul, that it is all allegory, too. He also interpreted Gītā like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he interpreted like that.

Bhava-bhūti: So same Māyāvāda concept.

Yaśomatīnandana: That is also Radhakrishnan who said that battlefield of Kurukṣetra is just a battle of soul and something...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: The five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the... Five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses actually. There is nothing like Mahābhārata war.

Bhava-bhūti: All allegory they want to dismiss it as.

Yaśomatīnandana: They think that this is all idols.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then you should take your shoe and hit them in the face and say, "This is also allegory of how the material world slaps one." Actually...

Yaśomatīnandana: He says that Vyāsadeva is an imaginary character.

Prabhupāda: And in India the Māyāvāda poison has overflooded.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere.

Indian man (4): [Hindi conversation]

Bhava-bhūti: Just like they import gañjā, they import Māyāvādī philosophy also.

Prabhupāda: In America.

Bhava-bhūti: Yeah. And all these books.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually the Māyāvādī philosophy was started with Vivekananda. Because I don't find in the Christian faith that they are Māyāvādīs. Their belief is service to God. Of course, they are somewhat Māyāvādīs. But this real strong Māyāvādī was brought from East with Buddhism and Vivekananda's philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I was studying, you know, books...

Prabhupāda: Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī.

Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya Prabhupāda! [Prabhupāda chuckles]

Prabhupāda: All śūnyavādīs, Māyāvādīs, yes. Impersonalists.

Bhava-bhūti: That's why this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy is so unique. [break] [end]