Morning Walk , Los Angeles , 1973-12-30

Śrutakīrti: [introducing tape] Morning Walk, December 30, 1973. [break]

Prajāpati: In this morning's class you were giving us the example of the takeover of the kingship, of the brāhmaṇas getting rid of a bad king. So many times in the literature you've given us, whether Kṛṣṇa killing His uncle King Kaṁsa, or the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and Arjuna in the Battle of Kurukṣetra killing the old political regime that are demoniac consciousness. Is this the recommended means in Vedic literature for getting rid of bad government, or are there other means that are described, that one can get rid of demoniac government and take over with godly rulers?

Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders Mahatma Gandhi and Subhas Chandra Bose. So Subhas Chandra Bose was of opinion that---and that is a fact---that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue."

So for thirty years... He started from 1917, and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhas Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But the Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship. Then he though that "So long this man will live, there will be no independence." So he went out of India and joined with Hitler, and Tojo, Japanese.

Nitāi: Who went out of India, Prabhupāda? Who went out of India?

Prabhupāda: This Subhas Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politician. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see?

They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia and Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army," actually, they were expanding their empire, Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. [devotees laugh]

So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet word you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum baculum, I told you the other day.

[break] ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there, French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without revolution, violence, you cannot change old order. "Old orders changes, giving place to new." That old order changes... Everywhere it is by violence. The Mahābhārata also, the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa was there. He tried to settle up. But it was not settled without violence. Paritrāṇāya... What is that? Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Kṛṣṇa also comes, vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, to..., for killing the demons. Kṛṣṇa also comes. [break]

Nalinīkaṇṭha: ...will be overthrown and replaced with God conscious beings?

Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government you should try to change? Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? Because under democratic government, your order is not final. So if the people are demons, then what you will do? You cannot do anything. Therefore the people's mentality, consciousness, should be changed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When they become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will select Kṛṣṇa conscious president. Then everything finished. Formerly people used to accept the king as the final authority, but at this present moment, that is not accepted. People must accept. Now it is people's government. So unless people are God conscious, you cannot have good government. In comparison to other governments, your government is far better. People here not starving.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, I have seen.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In other governments people are starving. They have no food. That is the worst government. First necessity of life, that one must eat, one must have shelter, but other governments cannot even do that. But in your country, you have got enough food, enough shelter, everything is there. That consideration, your government is very nice government. Bare necessities of life must be supplied. Here the fault is extravagancy.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Too much.

Prabhupāda: Too much, yes. Luxury leads to poverty. Too much luxury. Now it will deteriorate.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: I was reading in one of the books that you have translated, you said that as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, the mentality of all of the people in that area, they lose their desires for material enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: No. Material enjoyment, you enjoy, but not like cats and dogs. You enjoy material life like human being. That is our proposal. Not like cats and dogs. Is it not enjoyment when you sit down in the Deity room and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read philosophy? It is not enjoyment?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, it is very nice.

Prabhupāda: So this is human enjoyment. And to go to the brothel and drink and fight and talk all nonsense, is that enjoyment?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.

Prabhupāda: That is cats' and dogs' enjoyment. We must enjoy like human being. Enjoyment is not denied. Why should we deny?

Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, but as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will be more of a desire to live simply.

Prabhupāda: That is good for them. That is good for them. Because at the present moment they are missing the aim of life. That is the defect. They do not know what is the goal of life. They are thinking, "We are also like cats and dogs." And that is the defect of the modern civilization. Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise, this āhāra-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds, they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program.

Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable condition = birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense.


So defense, automatically the small birds are taking. You see? They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. [laughter] They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately.

Devotee: Even while he's eating, he's still...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows how to do it. Therefore I was explaining the other day, that for eating, for sleeping, for having sex intercourse and to defend, there is no use of education. Everyone knows automatically. But at the present moment, the whole education is on this point. Real education---what is life, what is goal of life---they do not know. This is the point.

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the little children now, their favorite game is to play "Śrīla Prabhupāda." They will make a vyāsāsana, the children, and one will play you, and they'll sit on it and get a gong, and they'll have play cookies, and the other children will come and take the cookies. They play like that. Then they hold class. They have a Bhagavad-gītā, and they'll chant oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. And then after that they will just make up, nu na boy ee char, [as if chanting] like that. [Prabhupāda laughs]

[pause] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...where is their food? Immediately, just see.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: The food and the sand, it looks exactly the same. So how they are immediately able to tell which is which?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see their intelligence. You are very much proud of your intelligence. Just see their intelligence. Everyone is intelligent. Therefore actual intelligence is he who knows Kṛṣṇa. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He has got intelligence---you cannot deny that---but he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. You have got intelligence; you can understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you don't use your intelligence for understanding Kṛṣṇa, you are nothing but cats and dogs. Kṛpaṇa. They are called kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa means miser. One has got money but he does not know how to utilize it, he is called kṛpaṇa, miser.

They are so rascal that they cannot conceive that there is something as God and He can be known. Hopeless. That is the real point. Otherwise, why so many scientists are...? They know, "This is idea only. There is nothing like God. So let us put our theories." That's all. That is your business, theology. They are so rubbish. That was the first publication in [the Village] Voice paper. They wrote when I first began in 1965 that "We thought that God is dead, but Swāmījī has brought God with kīrtana." They admitted this. I think the paper, you have got copy. You can see. It said exactly like this, that "We thought God is dead, but here we see, Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought God in kīrtana." That's it.

Child: Perfect... [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Child: Shells.

Prabhupāda: What you will do? [laughs] No, there is no pearl.

Child: What?

Prabhupāda: There is no pearl. Throw it. Wash your hand. Wash.

Prabhupāda: Some our men are still coming?

Karandhara: Yes. [indistinct] [break]

Prajāpati: ...current, popular for the last few score of years of Western theology, called systematic theology, in which the various areas of religious or spiritual understanding were covered almost in category. They would take a certain phrase like "creation..."

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some kind of speculation.

Prajāpati: I am not talking about the content, which is nonsense, but the form which expounds each, like, area of thought by itself.

Prabhupāda: Jurisdiction.

Prajāpati: Yes.

Karandhara: That's known as speculation.

Prajāpati: But would it be a good proposition to present Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy in such a systematic way?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You do it. Do it. That is intelligence. Here is the only systematic way to understand God. You simply try to understand the first verse of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Then everything is explained there. Now you can... I have explained that, what is meant by God. God means the source of everything. Where is that theologician who can deny it? The first proposition is, "God is that which is the source of everything." Now the next question will be, "What is that source, animate or inanimate?" Just like the scientists, they are claiming "matter." This should be discussed. Then you come to the conclusion, "He must be animate." Then next question is "Wherefrom the animation came?" Then the conclusion should be that "He is self-sufficient. There is no need of cause." Then "Why people cannot understand?" That answer is that "Even great, great personality like Brahmā, Indra, they also bewildered." In this way, everything is there in that verse, systematical. Yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā [SB 1.1.1].

Now this material world is also creation of God, but it is shadow; it is not reality. The reality is where there is no illusion, and that is spiritual kingdom. That is the place of God. Everything is there in that verse in the beginning. And then next verse is, the so-called religions, they are kicked out from this Bhāgavatam. The religion is, "God is great, and everyone should worship Him." Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsara... [SB 1.1.2]. And it is meant for the first-class non-envious person. One who is envious, he will think, "Oh, why shall I worship God?" He cannot. One who is non-envious, he understands that "God is great always. I am always subordinate. Therefore I must worship." This is... In systematic way you discuss. "I must worship, because I am dependent. I am not final authority. So the great... God is great, and I am always small. So it is my duty to submit to the great." So that is bhakti.

So you can discuss in a systematic way. Bhāgavata is there. There is no difficulty. And it is said there, īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate [SB 1.1.2] = "By studying this literature, the God immediately becomes captured." Immediately becomes captured. These people are searching after God, but if one understands Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from the very beginning, rightly, immediately God is captured. Sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate, śuśrūṣubhiḥ, "Those who are seriously and inquisitive, for them." Tat-kṣaṇāt, "immediately." There is no need of taking time, that "So many years it will take." No. Tat-kṣaṇāt. These are stated in the Bhāgavata.

Prajāpati: We have all the theology, then. This is the theology.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You present Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in true perspective. Then it will be perfection of your education. The so-called theologicians, they cannot understand God. It is not possible. That is not the way, that "I put my theory." He does not understand his value first, that "What is the value of my theory? If I am imperfect, what is the value of my theory?" He does not understand the first principle, and he puts theory. Another rascal, he is putting theory. So what is the value of these theories?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Actually they are simply selling their theories. Whoever will buy it, they are selling it to.

Prabhupāda: Another rascal is buying. We are not buying. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam [SB 12.13.18]. Spotless knowledge, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Amalam. Amalam means without any spot. [break] ...of God is given in the dictionary, "supreme being." That is very nice. Everywhere we see that on the top there is a supreme being, just like in your state, the president. So why not this big government, a supreme being? Where is the difficulty? Without something supreme, controller, things cannot go nicely. Otherwise why you select a president? Why you select a supreme being and give him all power, that "Your order will be final"? Why you do that? Because you want the government must go on nicely. Otherwise there is no need of electing a president. So supreme being must be there, in every management. So this big huge management, there must be supreme being. And that is God. Clear, simple understanding. How can you deny?

The difficulty is that with our poor fund of knowledge, we cannot understand that how a supreme being, person, can create the sky, this huge water, the sun, moon. Because I am thinking, "God must be like me." A Dr. Frog. He is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean must be like this well." That is our defect. He cannot conceive that beyond this well there can be a vast, great mass of water. He cannot conceive. So comparing his intelligence, he is thinking that "How it is possible that a person can create such a big sky, such big, huge...?" Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. This earth, so big, huge quantity of earthly planet. So not only one; millions. And then water, then fire, then... He cannot conceive. He is thinking that "If there is God, He must be like me. So I cannot do this. Therefore there is no God." The same, "Yes. I close my eyes. Then there is no enemies." That's all.

He should be intelligent. Just like we are here ten or twenty men. You accept that "He is our guru. He is most intelligent man." Similarly, somebody is more intelligent than me, somebody is more intelligent, more intelligent. Go on searching. Find out the final intelligent. That is comparative intelligence. That we know. But what is that final intelligence? That we must know. That is God. Just like the sun. If we think that beyond this sun there is no more planet, that is not correct. You cannot go beyond this sun. That is another thing. But all the planets are surrounding the sun. That everyone knows. So if there is a planet this down the sun, why not up the sun? It is common sense. This water is impersonal, but go down the water, you will find millions of persons, aquatics. Those who are seeing superficially on the surface, they have concluded, "Now finished. All personality finished. It is all vacant." That is poor fund of knowledge. Real knowledge is go deep into the water, you will find millions of creatures. They are living very nicely within the water. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayān... [Bs. 5.35] Even within the atom, you will find personality.

Devotee: Is that personality within the atom Paramātmā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa. Govinda.

Devotee: When they release the atomic energy, where does that energy come from?

Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. He is the origin of everything. Don't you read Bhagavad-gītā? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. The atomic energy is different from sarvasya. Sarvasya means everything. Everything comes from Him. The atomic energy must come from Him. Right conclusion.

Devotee: I was wondering if they... They say they are splitting the atom, and Kṛṣṇa is living within the atom. When they divide the atom, there is so much energy released.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Because Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore you will find Kṛṣṇa's energy.

Devotee: Is that more directly Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Directly, yes. You cannot even tolerate the atomic energy, and He has got reserved so many other energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Millions of energies Kṛṣṇa has got. This is one of the energy. You cannot tolerate it. Reservoir of all energy.

Prajāpati: Today everybody is lamenting the energy crisis, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hah. There is no crisis. They have created the crisis, the rascals.

Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we will have to cross over to here [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: All right.

Karandhara: Walk down here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. They say, "Conservation of energy." So why there is crisis? Find out the reservoir and find out the energy. That is the scientific theory, "conservation of energy." Find out where the energy comes from. [break] When it is finished, so I ask, "Just go to the kitchen. Find out some more to eat." So that is the source of energy. You find out the source of energy, then there is no crisis. [laughter]

But the rascals, they do not know where the purī is being made. He is going to the privy. [laughter] "Might be purī here." That is their mistake. He does not know the purī is being supplied from the kitchen, not from the latrine. That is their mistake. Instead of going to the kitchen they are going to the latrine. Their advancement of knowledge is up to latrine. That's all. That is the Vedānta information. The conservation of energy is first explained in the Bhāgavata = janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], that here is... [break] [end]