Room Conversation , Delhi , 1973-11-04

Prabhupāda: But suppose you are different...

Guest (1): But, but...

Prabhupāda: He is Christian, she is Muhammadan, she is Buddhist. Secular government means government should give protection to the Hindu, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to the Buddhist. But it is the government's duty to see that no one is cheating.

[Prabhupāda and guests converse in Hindi]

Government's duty to see that people may not become cheated. [Hindi] Let me speak in English, so that he can follow.

Guest (1): They don't follow Indian...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. [Hindi] Take for example a man is presenting himself as brāhmaṇa, but he's doing something else. That should be stopped. You are doing the business of a śūdra, why you are claiming as brāhmaṇa? This is government duty.

Guest (1): Now say this person [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...is very touchy about his being śūdra?

Prabhupāda: No, why he should be?

Guest (1): No, but he thinks that all of us look down upon him. So one has to be very careful. And I think that if you could say something about the real harijana.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I'll speak. That I'll speak. Now, if he is coming from the śūdra community...

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...but he is now minister...

Guest: He's a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Lady Guest: Not even brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Not exactly, yes.

Lady Guest: Not a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: But at least he's a kṣatriya.

Guest (1): I mean, defense ministry.

Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya, and that is the, that is the sanction of the śāstra.

yasya hi yal-lakṣaṇaṁ
puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiśet.

This is the statement by Nārada Muni. I shall quote the śāstra.

Guest (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's.... Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to guṇa, śauryaṁ tejaḥ, yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam, īśvara-bhāvaś ca [Bg. 18.43]. These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta, if these qualities are found somewhere else... Suppose a śūdra, a caṇḍāla, if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra.

Guest (1): No. As varna [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: There are many instances, but this is the injunction of the śāstra. And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family---nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the M.D. examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brāhmaṇa? Then I make my treatment with you." Nobody asks that. So this is the śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brāhmaṇism, śūdra-ism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture, spoiled.

Guest (1): Quite right.

Prabhupāda: That should be the point. Now it is the duty of the secular government... Now if somebody is claiming that "I am brāhmaṇa," then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa. That is government's duty; that is secular state. Not that "Let people go to hell. We don't care for them." That is not required.

Guest (1): Yes, but if a brāhmaṇa is not behaving...

Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa.

Lady Guest: Perform the duties of a brāhmaṇas.

Guest (1): And actions and dharma and...

Prabhupāda: That should be the platform.

Guest (1): Because if a brāhmaṇa goes on drinking and abusing and..., then he is not a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is not brāhmaṇa. How can that be brāhmaṇa? That is a śūdra, caṇḍāla. Then what is the difference between a... But they are claiming brāhmaṇism by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra.

Guest (1): No, no.

Prabhupāda: That is not allowed.

Guest (1): It is by our actions and by thoughts [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Never says birth. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, quality and karma.

Guest (1): One thing more I can do here for all the devotees... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...Sanskrit teaching in our books.

Guest (1): Language also.

Prabhupāda: Language doesn't matter. Suppose if I address your wife "mātā" or if I call "mother". It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: One has to understand that a lady should be respectfully called as mother. You call it mātā or mother, it doesn't matter. Yes, some rascals inquire from them that "Do you know Sanskrit?" Where is the condition that unless one knows Sanskrit he cannot be a devotee? Where is that condition?

Guest (1): In the same way you see the early Christians inquired, "Do you know Latin?" And that's why the whole of England, you see, revolted, and they said we will do only in English. Because by Latin...

Prabhupāda: So one bābājī...

[aside:] I think that you were in Surat?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī, that "Learn Sanskrit, then you'll understand Bhagavad-gītā." So I immediately asked him that "You go away. You go away from this place."

Guest (1): Not at all.

Prabhupāda: So he supposed.... I went to preach in the Western country. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇava? It is a training. It is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit? Otherwise you cannot become..."

Guest (1): It is good to learn as many languages as you can, because... But if you're not, that doesn't matter anything.

Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from the school, college, that's all. A Sanskrit scholar is different; he learns grammar fourteen[?] years.

Guest (1): A waste of time. A waste of time, a waste of life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see?

Guest (1): [indistinct] Romanian Ambassador, and we went to a place, University of Yas[?] The great poet Eminescu, he's the greatest Romanian poet, and he studies Sanskrit and his poems reflect Vedānta and Gītā ---I read him very well, and he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.

Guest (1): Max Mueller, for example.

Prabhupāda: Max Mueller was not very big scholar, but at the present moment there are many actually scholars.

Guest (1): And Lesnee[?], Professor Lesnee[?] was another scholar in Bengali and Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean he knows the Vedic literature.

Guest (1): No, but they were..., they could...

Prabhupāda: Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahudhā śrutena... [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.23]. This is another verse.

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Simply because you have got good brain substance, you'll be a devotee? It doesn't mean.

Guest (1): No, no. Bhāvanati...

Prabhupāda: Bhāvana means it is, it is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa, then He gives the intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not a mechanical way.

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: It is not a mechanical way. Simply one has to be very serious and sincere, then you develop. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deva tathā gurau, tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśaḥ [ŚU 6.23]. He becomes revealed. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. He is not revealed to everyone. It requires the qualification how to become a devotee, surrendered soul. [Hindi to Indian lady] Your daughter, as soon as there was kīrtana, how she was dancing.

Guest (1): Hmm.

Prabhupāda: She is young girl.

Guest (1): She is very devoted.

Prabhupāda: She has the advanced devotion. Therefore... She is a young girl, she was not ashamed; so immediately she began to dance.

Guest (1): She has always been like that.

Prabhupāda: This is automatic. You see? So it is not a artificial thing.

Guest (1): No, no she feels it. That is her mission. But I don't want to interfere.

Prabhupāda: No, I was very surprised how this nice girl... Other girls, they are also dancing. So this dancing, I was explaining to him, that this dancing has no artificial.

Guest (1): It is from heart.

Prabhupāda: Ecstatic.

Guest (1): She's ecstatic, yes. Otherwise nobody will get up at 3:30 in the morning.

Prabhupāda: Lokavājya[?]. Doesn't care that "Here is my mother, here is my father, here is my..." No. Effortless.

Guest (1): She says today she is going to the park to make a temple. I didn't [indistinct]. She said she wants to be a devotee

Prabhupāda: So, she has got the tendency to become a perfect devotee. As a father and mother you should not hamper it.

Guest (1): [laughs] I tell her that, too, you see.

Prabhupāda: Because it is not easy to become a devotee.

Guest (1): I know.

Prabhupāda: It is not easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. To become a devotee and surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām. And if she has developed, it is the duty... And śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum [SB 5.5.18]. These things are there. So, if she has got the natural tendency you should give all possible help to her. This is the duty of the father.

Guest (1): This is quite right.

Prabhupāda: This is duty of the father.

Guest (1): We give it at home, because we told her whatever she wanted to put things, mūrtis, other things, we have installed it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, let her enjoy this devotional life. She has developed it. It is a fortune for you, because if one member of the family becomes a devotee of the Lord, he can deliver all the members. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon.

Guest (1): I know.

Prabhupāda: Demon. [laughs] Prahlāda Mahārāja, when he was asked, "Take benediction, whatever you like," he said, "Sir, what benediction I shall take? I have seen the benediction of my father. He was so powerful, even the demigods trembled by his red eyes, and You finished it within a second. So what is the value of this benediction? Kindly engage me in Your service." Then Prahlāda Mahārāja, he did not ask anything for himself, but later on he asked Nṛsiṁha-deva, "Sir, my Lord, one request I can make = My father was a great demon. He was against You, but still I pray that his liberation will be granted."

Guest (1): Very nice of him. Very good of him.

Prabhupāda: [laughs]

Lady Guest: To save his father.

Prabhupāda: So Nṛsiṁha-deva replied, "So don't be worried about your father. Not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to fourteen generation, because a devotee like you, who is born in this family, fourteen generations they are liberated." This is the process. Best service. If your daughter can give best service to your family by becoming a devotee, she gives service to you, to your husband, to your husband's father, your father---that is the śāstric injunction.

Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee?

Prabhupāda: Devotee means he does not know anything better than Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Guest (1): But suppose a man who is working in life with always that consciousness, is he...

Prabhupāda: What is that consciousness?

Guest (1): That he knows nothing but Kṛṣṇa, you see, and works in that [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: That his action will prove. Simply by...

Guest: No, not action. Just you say the brāhmaṇa must do by actions.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): So a devotee is also by actions he can do it?

Prabhupāda: By symptoms.

Guest (1): Symptoms.

Prabhupāda: Just like your daughter, she is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Even she does not like to live with family because she does not find very congenial atmosphere.

Guest: No, we ask all our friends, devotees around.

Prabhupāda: A devotee, as Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tādera caraṇa-sevi-bhakta-sane vās [Nāma-saṅkīrtana 7]. Bhakta-sane vās. You must live amongst the devotees.

Guest (1): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: In our Society he has come from America, he has come from Canada, I am from India, but we have forgotten all our family relations. We have nothing to do. We are in a different atmosphere. They can die for me, I can die for them, but we have no family relationship. He coming from America, I'm from India, he's from Canada, he's from [indistinct], but the central point is Kṛṣṇa. You see? That is devotion.

Tādera caraṇa-sevi-bhakta-sane vās. Bhakta-sane vās. Therefore we have made this Society, Kṛṣṇa conscious Society. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, let us live together. We are also living together in a house---we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this---but everything in a Society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business, if you become a member of the association, stock sell exchange, you can do better business.

Guest (1): [laughs] But not all the time.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I say... Not all the time, because it is material. This is material. They cannot do all the time because this is temporary. You can work as a stock exchange broker for a few hours, then it will be havoc[?]. But it is not like that. If you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours, you'll never be worried. You'll never be tired. That is the difference between material and spiritual activities. Just like these boys, they are working day and night, voluntary. I do not pay them. They are all qualified. Suppose if one wanted to keep a servant like him, how much he will have to pay? They are doing for nothing. Rather, if I become angry, they become afraid. [laughs]

Guest (1): But I also... No, no, I mean I...

Prabhupāda: But you are also helping us.

Guest (1): [indistinct] ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: That I know, that I know. Therefore you have got such a nice daughter.

Guest (1): You see, but I have only this thing, that I say it is my responsibility to look after the family also.

Prabhupāda: It is the duty of everyone that this movement is so important that people are in the darkness of ignorance. They have become so rascal all over the world. It is not a particular country---all over the world. They do not know the value of life. They are living like cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating and dying. And we are giving the information what is the value of life. So every sane man take this movement very seriously.

Guest (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: All the leaders, they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die, and defend. What is the difference in this minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? But they have taken it very important.

Guest (1): In some way even the cats and dogs are better, they defend better.

Prabhupāda: Yes, without money, without soldiers, they have got nails.

Devotee: Cats and dogs have weapons built-in.

Guest (1): And moreover [indistinct] and they are loyal, you see?

Prabhupāda: So we are thinking, "Now we have got defense measure with atomic bomb, we are now advanced." But what is that advancement? That defensive method is there even cats and dogs. What you have done beyond this? They have no brain. Everyone is spoiling life with these four principles of how to eat, how to sleep. Eating...

Guest (1): Even they don't eat nicely. They eat rubbish.

Prabhupāda: Actually they eat rubbish, but they think like that. It is a misguided civilization.

Guest (1): Well, if I [indistinct]. Only day before yesterday at vegetarian hotel I got whole lunch. And whole day yesterday I was [indistinct]. So much [indistinct] they put.

Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization.

Guest (1): I know.

Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind men leading other blind men. This is going on.

Guest (1): I have suggested, you have got this, ah... What do you call that flower? It's very frangrant [indistinct].

Devotee: [indistinct] panju?

Guest (1): No, no, what you call that [indistinct] that flower came?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): That white flower, fragrant flower. It is called parajit?

Devotee: Pārijāta.

Guest (1): Pārijāta.

Lady Guest: Pārijāta.

Guest (1): Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this, you can have.

Prabhupāda: No, a pārijāta flower, it is not here. It is not possible.

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: That is heavenly.

Guest (1): We have got here, pārijāta.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (1): They call it pārijāta.

Prabhupāda: They call. [laughs]

Guest (1): A very beautiful, fragrant flower.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is harsingar. Shiuli flower. [Night Jasmine]

Guest (1): Oh, it is nice.

Prabhupāda: It is nice. There are many nice flowers.

Guest (1): You want some flower pots, I have got a lot of plants now, from the seeds. Tell somebody to come, I can give for the garden here. I have got marigolds, I have got phloxes. I think they are very nice for the pūjā. You see? You can have tomorrow if you can come get that. [break]

Prabhupāda: So high for these poor people.

Guest (1): Such a vicious circle. Higher the prices, higher the wages, higher the wages, higher the prices, with less production. If there are five loaves and people have ten rupees, they'll buy five loaves. And if they have twenty rupees also they'll buy five loaves because there are ten loaves.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This higher price is due to [indistinct]. They are holding stock.

Guest (1): But it is not sufficient for all these people, population.

Prabhupāda: No, if you pay them sufficient.

Guest (1): And it means the stock is so limited.

Lady Guest: [indistinct]

[others speaking in background]

Prabhupāda: Unlimited. The stock is [indistinct]. If you pay [indistinct].

Guest (1): You see what happens... Suppose you see in a house there are four liters of milk, you see, and each one is given 100 rupees, you see, then they will buy, each one, let's say one liter. And if they are given 200 rupees, the one who has got 200 rupees, they get one liter also for 200 rupees, you see? So what is happening is people who have got black money, they want the things for themselves. There is a price there. So the price will go up.

Prabhupāda: How they get black money unless there is black market?

Guest (1): No, because stock being limited. Suppose a medicine is wanted, a man is willing to give anything to get the medicine. They make the money out of that.

Prabhupāda: So far I have got experience, the stock is available if you pay black.

Guest (1): Look at last year's drought over there. [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Black or white prices [Hindi].

Guest (1): [Hindi] Twenty million tons was less. Two million tons was less.

Prabhupāda: No, there are so many millions of [indistinct].

Lady Guest: [Hindi]

Guest (1): You see, greater productions is one of the keys to lower prices.

Prabhupāda: This is one of the businessman's tricks. When there is new harvest they purchase and keep it and they keep the stock.

Lady Guest: Store it.

Prabhupāda: And when the prices are high, they sell it. Now the same process suppose, if I want to hold stock, say 100 tons of rice, so I have no money, if I have got 25% price the bank will advance me 75%, so I hold the stock.

Guest (1): Now it is an offense to hold the stock.

Prabhupāda: But that is going on in black.

Guest (1): Therefore that should be stopped.

Prabhupāda: So how you can stop?

Guest (1): By better consciousness, where truth is good.

Prabhupāda: Ah! That requires Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): Ah, yes.

Prabhupāda: Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): Ultimately everything.

Prabhupāda: Unless you become a devotee.

Guest (1): Quite right.

Prabhupāda: Therefore śāstra says, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12].

Guest (1): Quite right.

Prabhupāda: Those who are nondevotee, they cannot have any good quality.

Guest (1): Quite true. You see therefore unless you have more production and good quality people...

Prabhupāda: Production... If we like, if we cooperate... Just like United Nation. We can produce twenty times production that is required.

Guest (1): Quite right.

Prabhupāda: So much land.

Guest (1): Quite right.

Prabhupāda: In America, Australia, I have seen.

Guest (1): Seeing is right, but so little water. You know what, to put plastic sheets to collect water.

Prabhupāda: There cannot be any scarcity of food. That we are convinced.

Guest (1): Yes, if we work hard.

Prabhupāda: Not work hard; everyone should produce. But who is producing? Suppose in Delhi, such a big city. What is the population?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the population, Delhi?

Guest (1): About, ah, four million.

Prabhupāda: Four million. And what is the population of Bombay?

Guest (1): About six and a half million, seven million.

Prabhupāda: Seven million. And what is the Calcutta?

Guest (1): About seven and a half million.

Prabhupāda: And in this way if you take... And what is the population of India?

Guest: Five, ah, nearly six hundred million now, it would be.

Prabhupāda: Six hundred million.

Guest (1): Five-fifty, five..., six hundred million.

Prabhupāda: So if you take all these city population it will come to three hundred million. They are doing nothing for producing.

Guest (1): No, they are producing cotton, textiles.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot eat [indistinct].

Lady Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: You can produce bolt and nut and this, but you cannot eat. So this is going on. Formerly, everyone was in village. Formerly. Everyone was interested to produce food. Everyone had got land. Even the brāhmaṇas they were not working. The śūdras would work, and they produce half and half, sale. Then government tax only 25%.

Guest (1): Hmm.

Prabhupāda: That would cover everything---shelters, income tax, this tax, that tax also. But if you have not produced anything, there was no tax. This was the system. Everyone was happy. Here, one side there is no production, there is scarcity; another side, government taxes 89, 95%.

Guest (1): Ninety-seven percent.

Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense?

Guest (1): Ninety-three percent.

Prabhupāda: And everyone is doing everything, whatever he likes.

Guest (1): In black. No trade is going on. We are under the counter, they are over the counter.

Prabhupāda: If I just now cut your throat, the police will come, arrest me, note down, and the judgment will be given when all your family members will no longer...

Guest (1): The judgment won't be given, the police will take money and...

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Lady Guest: Everything will be over.

Guest (1): It was never a murder taking place at all.

Prabhupāda: This the position. Everything is [indistinct]. Therefore most important thing is people should come to his consciousness, real consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): Character. Character.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Character. [conversation in Hindi] [end]