Room Conversation with Indian Guest , Bombay , 1973-10-04

Guest (1): ...the light is [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No, no. That means light becomes subordinate to the shadow.

Guest (1): Uh, for his experience, for his growth.

Prabhupāda: That is my... Therefore this experience... You have got some experience, I have got some experience and another has experience. But so far you are talking of Bhagavad-gītā... Because you say that Aurobindo has written on the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says... In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, Kṛṣṇa says:

mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat
kiñcid asti dhanañjaya
mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ
sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva

Like that. He says that mattaḥ parataram: "There is no more superior, supramental or Supreme Personality..." As you say supramental, it is with reference to a person. Just like Aurobindo, supramental. That means it is with reference to the Aurobindo person. Is it not? Any mental, as you say "mental," it is with reference to a person.

Guest (1): Even if somebody says he is supramental or not, a yogī automatically, when he is in touch with the creative power, he gets the..., gets the knowledge of past, present and future.

Prabhupāda: Then why your knowledge and my knowledge different?

Guest (1): Because of our construction of mind.

Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it, that...

Guest (1): The vibration comes the same, but one poet may write a poetry of a very high..., you know, Shakespeare...

Prabhupāda: I've got... I made...

Guest (1): And another can be a lower form. But both of them are true. For me, even in the lower poetry's true, the higher is true. But it is a question of gradation merely, where the man has reached to.

Prabhupāda: Well, everything is true, but higher true, or lower true.

Guest (1): Both are true.

Prabhupāda: Both are true, but both are not the same thing. Then why higher and lower?

Guest (1): Because of his evolutionary stage.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Then higher must be taken as higher, lower must be taken as lower. Just like a child's mental condition and his father's mental condition, they are not the same thing.

Guest (1): Sir, then today's lower, lower..., higher, will be tomorrow's lower. Because tomorrow will be another unfolding.

Prabhupāda: But, but then you have to admit... Tomorrow he may be higher, but the, there is always the same thing, higher and lower. That you have to admit.

Guest (1): It's a manifestation.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): It's a manifestation of his knowledge[?].

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you have to accept... Just like your son, your son. Tomorrow he'll be grown up like you, but at the present moment, his mental condition, your mental condition, there are different.

Guest (1): He's in evolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes, evolution. That I understand. But these two things will continue.

Guest (1): As long as he's evolving and I'm evolving separately...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Guest (1): ...as individual...

Prabhupāda: No...,

Guest (1): ...because we are individualized.

Prabhupāda: But do you think that Aurobindo's mental condition or your mental condition, the same?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then here is higher and lower.

Guest (1): No, no.

Prabhupāda: Why "no"? One time you say, "No..." No, no, this is contradictory.

Guest (1): Yes, sir, this is part [indistinct] higher and lower.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Gradations, you can use words.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that will exist always.

Guest (1): Always?

Prabhupāda: Always exist.

Guest (1): They will always exist? Gradations will always exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Now where that evolution will end?

Guest (1): When there will be a world of ānanda, a new type of world...

Prabhupāda: But...

Guest (1): ...as animals...

Prabhupāda: That is, that is an expectation. That will never become. As you believe in Aurobindo, "When there will be," we say, "In the material world, there will be no such thing."

Guest (1): The Lord will be minus, then, if He cannot create a...

Prabhupāda: No, Lord is not minus.

Guest (1): ...a divine body on the [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No, no. Lord is not minus. That you have to take information from the Bhagavad-gītā, as the Lord says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. In this material world, it is everything duḥkhālayam aśāś... Because you talked of the Bhagavad-gītā, therefore I am talking on the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā states about this material world as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. It is a place of miseries only.

Guest (1): Provided this is the body.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Provided this is the body. When the...

Prabhupāda: But this body you have got. How you can deny?

Guest (1): But next evolution has to be another body only, sir.

Prabhupāda: That is your expectation.

Guest (1): No. Already this, it is before us. The animals have come, and they, above the animals, we are there. We can't be the end of it. The next one is this yogic life, or a yogic body.

Prabhupāda: But then... What is that end? That you do not know.

Guest (1): It will be always unfolding.

Prabhupāda: That means it is always unknown.

Guest (1): Yes, the Lord is... Nobody can limit Lord.

Prabhupāda: You say... No, no. That is, that is unknown to you. But according to Bhagavad-gītā, it is not unknown. There is a standard. There is a perfection stage.

Guest (1): As long as I have got body, I can never know God fully.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right, so long you have got the body.

Guest (1): All of our śāstras says...

Prabhupāda: But, you hear me. You have come to take some light. You kindly hear.

Guest (1): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: You were talking on the Bhagavad-gītā. I say on the Bhagavad-gītā. So, so long you have got this body, there is no perfection. That's a fact.

Guest (1): Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: But Bhagavad-gītā says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Bhagavad-gītā says that if you understand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, janma karma me... First of all, you always remember that whatever we are talking, we are talking on the Bhagavad-gītā, on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9].

If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā deham, giving up this body, you'll not have to accept another material body. This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. But so long you'll accept this body, material body, you'll remain imperfect. There cannot be any perfection. It may be gradation. There are 8,000,400 [sic] forms of life. There is Brahmā, and there is ant also. Both of them are living entities. But the status quo of the ant and the status quo of Brahmā is not the same, higher consciousness or mental...

So they're all in the material world. None of them are perfect. Between Brahmā and ant, there are millions of other living entities, 8,000,000. Not only 1,000,000; millions---8,400,000's forms of life. They're all imperfect because they have accepted this material body, either Brahmā or ant. But your perfection will come when you do not accept this material body. That is the, I mean to say, the destination of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9] = "After quitting this body, he does not accept any more this material body." This, that means he, he becomes perfect. That is stated in another place, saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ.

[aside:] Find out this verse.

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

Mām upetya. Find out this... Now, unless you take some standard book of knowledge, we cannot talk. If you talk whimsically, I talk whimsically, then there will be no end of talk. We have to... Because you told me the other day, "In the Bhagavad-gītā..." That is all right. Here is a standard. Everyone accepts. Now...

[aside:] You have found it?

Śrutakīrti: Mām upetya punar janma... [Bg. 8.15].

Prabhupāda: Mām upetya tu kaunteya...

Śrutakīrti: Oh.

Indian lady: May I ask you a question?

Prabhupāda: No, you don't ask. We are talking.

Śrutakīrti: Ā-brahma...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.


ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ
punar āvartino 'rjuna
mām upetya tu kaunteya
punar janma na vidyate

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now here is the perfectional stage. Now what is the translation?

Śrutakīrti: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."

Prabhupāda: So as soon as you have to take birth, you have to die. Just like Aurobindo took birth; he died. Everyone. Everyone, even Brahmā. It may be a long duration or a small duration. That doesn't matter. Everyone. That is the perfection knowledge = how to solve this birth and death problem. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9].

As soon as we are under these clutches of birth and death, old age and disease, we are imperfect. We are imperfect. Whatever I may be, you may be, but if I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, then I am imperfect. Therefore the perfectional..., perfection of life is when you haven't got to take birth or die or become diseased and old. That is perfection.

Guest (1): That world must be somewhere in existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. That is, that is indicated...

Guest (1): But that...

Prabhupāda: Yad gatvā na nivartante tad... [Bg. 15.6].

Guest (1): But that, the pressure of that world can come on our world also...

Prabhupāda: No, that world will not.

Guest (1): ...can become our world.

Prabhupāda: That knowledge... Just like we are getting this knowledge. Kṛṣṇa came. Kṛṣṇa is giving us the knowledge. You can get the knowledge and make your life perfect.

Guest (1): No, but that world must be in existence somewhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is existing. That is existing. Yes. That is... That is stated here in the Bhagavad...

Guest (1): But we can bring it down here with us.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not your servant, that you can bring it down. That is not possible.

Guest (1): Somebody has to work for it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another, I mean to say, rascal proposition. You cannot bring that.

Guest (1): Somebody has to. Because the creation can be...

Prabhupāda: No, no. "Somebody has to," that is your theory. But that is not possible.

Guest (1): The creation is always unfolding more and more, and becoming of more and more.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Creation is already there. Your knowledge is imperfect. You do not know what is that creation.

Guest (1): Few billion years before there was no human being living here.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom.

Guest (1): Hmm?

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom, that statement.

Guest (1): Is...?

Prabhupāda: Rascaldom.

Guest (1): Pardon me, sir?

Prabhupāda: Rascaldom. Foolishness.

Guest (1): Foolishness?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Well, today...

Prabhupāda: Because, because you say, "Two millions of years ago..." Now...

Guest (1): Six billion, whatever you may say...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (1): Whatever amount of time one can say, before that, there was no life here.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but Vedic literature, Vedic literatures, you see, these four yugas. Now, in the Bhagavad-gītā... We are talking always = sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. You study Bhagavad-gītā, you'll understand. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam. One yuga means forty-three lakhs of years. And multiply by... Eh?

Devotee: Mrs. Nair has come.

Prabhupāda: Let her come in, yes. And forty-three lakhs of years, multiply it by one thousand. Then how much it comes?

Guest (1): Forty-three multiplied by...

Prabhupāda: Forty-three lakhs multiplied by one thousand.

Guest (1): Four hundred thirty crores.

Prabhupāda: Thirty crores.

Guest (1): Four hundred thirty crores.

Prabhupāda: That is only twelve hours of Brahmā. So what you can two million?

Guest (1): No, no. I said six billion...

Prabhupāda: Six billion you may say, but this is only twelve hours of Brahmā. So just see how long he's living. Hundreds of millions of years he's living, still. And you say two millions years.

Guest (1): No, when you say Brahmā, you mean Supreme or the...?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Brahmā is a person like you and me. [Hindi, greeting Mrs. Nair] Aiye. Bettiye. [Hindi] Brahmā is also a living entity. Just like... [Hindi] We are all living entities. Similarly, Brahmā is also a living entity. Just like you are bigger than the ant, Brahmā is bigger than me. That is the difference only. But he's also living entity. So he lives for millions and millions of years.

[aside to Mrs. Nair:] [Hindi]

So the other gentleman not yet..., not has yet come, our Asnani. So let him come. Then we shall begin talking. So it is not a fact that two millions of years ago, there was no living entity. This is all rascaldom. Time is immemorial, and many, many millions of years ago there were living entities, more perfect living entities. They're still living. But we have no information. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā's one twelve hour, if you believe in the Bhagavad..., statement of Bhagavad-gītā... Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17].

[aside:] Read that.


ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ
rātriṁ yuga-sahasrāntāṁ
te 'ho-rātra-vido janāḥ

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Śrutakīrti: "By human calculation, a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahmā's one day. And such also is the duration of his night."

Prabhupāda: Now, that, this forty-three lakhs of years multiplied by one thousand, how many years it is?

Guest (1): Four hundred and thirty crores.

Prabhupāda: Four hundred and thirty...?

Guest (1): Crores.

Prabhupāda: Crores. That is day. Similarly, four hundred thirty crores, night.

Guest (2) [Indian man]: More. Four thousand, three hundred crores. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Just see. So four thousand, three hundred crores, that is day. And similarly night. Now this becomes complete twenty-four hours. Similarly one month. Similarly one year. He lives for one thousand, one hundred years. Now calculate.

Śrutakīrti: You have the total here.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śrutakīrti: You have a total here.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Śrutakīrti: Says, "These hundred years, by earth calculations, total to three hundred and eleven trillion and forty million..., and forty million earth years."

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you believe in Bhagavad-gītā, that is different thing. You cannot say all these things. But if you take this also, that also, that is another thing. We have to take a standard. Ācchā. [Hindi] I have got some important engagement with Mrs. Nair. She's the proprietor of the land. So...

Mrs. Nair: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi ] So you can go and see the temple, ārati. [end]