Room Conversation with Indian Guests , London , 1973-09-02
Guest (1): ...Yes, yes. I ask him why, after such a long lapse of time we could see this trait of Hindu dharma.
Prabhupāda.: Yes. Not Hindu dharma...
Guest: Or Vedic dharma.
Prabhupāda: ...but spiritual, satisfaction of spiritual starvation. Because we are spiritual being. That I was trying to explain, that we have bodily necessities, at the same time we have spiritual necessities. This Western civilization, they are simply after the bodily necessities. Just like here is a qualified medical man. He's made... What for, medical man? He knows how to satisfy the medical necessities of the body. He has no information of the spirit soul. Is it not a fact? Have you got any idea what is spirit soul?
Guest (2) [Indian Doctor]: Not from the medical knowledge, certainly not.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that these universities, educational institution, all over the world, they are simply concerned with this body. According to our Vedic culture, to remain satisfied with the bodily necessities of life is the business of animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ.
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
These are animal conception. So anyone who is accepting this body as the self, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and kharaḥ means asses.
So this civilization based on the bodily necessities of life is animal civilization. Because we are not this body, we are spirit soul, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā = dehina asmin dehe... Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The soul is within the body, and it is transmigrating from one type of body to another, even in this life. Just like I was in the baby's body, I was in a child's body, I was in a boy's body. Those bodies are gone. But I remember that I was in such-and-such bodies. But I am now in a different body. Therefore, although my bodies have changed so many times, I am cognizant; I know that I had such-and-such body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: to transmigrate from one body to another. This is the authoritative statement of Bhagavad-gītā.
There are so many serious students of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, his photographs were always with the Bhagavad-gītā, standing. But he was not a leader of understanding what is soul. He was simply concerned with the body. This nationalism is concerning this body. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Ijya, ijya means worshipable. On account of this bodily concept of life they have taken that this earth, or the place where the body is born, that has become worshipable. That is national, nationalism. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. And from my body there is relationship with my wife, wife my children; therefore they are my own men. There are hundreds and thousands of women, but one woman who has got bodily connection, she's my wife; I have to do so many things for her. Similarly children, the bodily connection. The whole material civilization, nationalism, socialism, this "ism," that "ism," everything based on this bodily concept of life. But one who is in bodily concept of life, he is no better than cows and asses.
So in the human form of life, because of the developed consciousness, there is inquiry, "What I am?" What I am? Am I this body or I'm something else other than this body? This is natural inquiry, and the Vedānta-sūtra begins from this inquiry. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. In the animal concept of life the inquiry is, "Where is my food? Where is my shelter? Where is my sex? Where is my defense?" These inquiries. But when one comes to the human form of body, the inquiry should be, at least, that "What I am?" If I study myself, I think, if I take this finger, am I this finger? The answer will be no. It is my finger. So my eyes, my head---everything "mine." Then where is "I"? Unless this inquiry comes into the living form of life, human form of life, he's not a human being; he's animal, because animals never inquire. He's satisfied. A dog is satisfied. He knows that "I am this body." According to the dog's body, he barks. That's all. No more inquiry. Therefore actual human form of life, actual business of human form of life, begins from this inquiry = brahma-jijñāsā. So this brahma-jijñāsā is being explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, "What is Brahman?" That is, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So dehī, the owner of the body, is Brahman. Therefore Vedic injunction is, "Just realize what you are. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi."
So it is not Hindu dharma or Indian dharma. It is natural inquiry of the living being when he's advanced in consciousness. So in the bodily concept of life, material necessities can be fulfilled by money or..., eating, sleeping, mating. But because these things do not give satisfaction to the Western people anymore, because they have seen enough of them---eating, sleeping, sex life and defense---natural inquiry is, "What is Brahman?" And that answer can be had from India, nowhere else. Therefore they have got inclination. Whenever they see some Indian svāmī, Indian person talking about spiritual, they flock. But they cheat. Instead of satisfying them... Now, so far our International Society is concerned, we do not cheat. We speak the real truth. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Here you are. Your relationship is to serve Him. Do this." So they are doing that. Therefore we see a little success of this movement all over the world.
Guest: What is God to a layman like me?
Prabhupāda: Layman, well, layman means, we already explained, he's no better than animal. Because layman means one who thinks that "I am this body." He's layman. He has no other information. So layman is equal to animal. So layman's education, layman's advancement, is decoration of the dead body. If you decorate a dead body, you can feel satisfaction. But others will laugh, that "What a fool he is. He's decorating a dead body?"
jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ
Layman's business is decorating this dead body, that's all.
Guest: Yeah, but if you were to explain to him what is God, how would you explain to him?
Prabhupāda: Then, suppose, what you are? What is your business? What do you do? You're teacher, what is the subject matter?
Guest: I teach in law.
Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking, "What is law, sir?" you can make him understand within a minute or within hour. Is it possible?
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Anyone who has taken to these system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas = brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama = brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa... Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal.
So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. So... But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning, that it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted.
Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśrama. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.
Guest: So in order to understand what is God, one has to leave his family and come to some...
Prabhupāda: So why do you surmise like that? You do not know what is God. How do you surmise your proposal?
Guest: No, I mean, ah...
Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are many... There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but They knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to... Because everything is allowed, these eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become..., to come to this form of life or that form of life.
So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra. That is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly and there must be the legs. By comparative study, head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head, so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone---madman.
So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately, the so-called yogīs, svāmīs come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma, or Bhāgavata-dharma.
This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama... He quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra: "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last, Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23], chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu, the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the... The age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment."
So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,
ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām
If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Śruti-gatām means hearing, receiving from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. And in that way if he engages his body, his words, tanu-vān, mind, then, although Lord Viṣṇu is Ajita, nobody can conquer Him, he can conquer. He can understand what is Viṣṇu, what is His function, what is my relationship with Him. All these things can be understood.
Therefore we are propagating the same principle. We do not ask anyone, "First of all you become brāhmaṇa. Then come here." No. Let him come and hear about Viṣṇu. We speak, discuss about Bhagavad-gītā. They hear. They hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You have seen our books? So these books are discussed, and gradually... If it is a fact, śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, if one gives only aural reception to this transcendental message, then, although God is Ajita, nobody can conquer, He becomes conquered. So that is becoming, happening, that although they are American, European, Canadian, African, Australian---not all of them are Indian; Indians are also there---but because they are giving aural reception to this transcendental message, they are becoming enlightened. So anyone who will give aural reception to this message---first of all Bhagavad-gītā, entrance, then Bhāgavatam, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, like books---then gradually he'll be self-realized, fully cognizant what is God. What is God, this is... Athāto brahma jijñāsā means what is God.
So this institution is meant for giving chance to everyone to hear. It doesn't require education. Simply God has given him this ear. Let him receive the message from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This is the process. Very simple process = simply to hear, sincerely, then everything will be done gradually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By hearing, the mirror of consciousness... Consciousness is just like a mirror---it is now covered with dust. Mārjanam. Mirror, if you cleanse with a duster, then you can see clearly what is your face. So by this chanting process and hearing, gradually the dirty things in the heart will be cleansed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa is puṇya, pious activities. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Either you hear or you chant, puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. There are so many dirty things, nonsense things, within the heart. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi, vidhunoti, is washed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ.
[aside:] Who is...? Find out this verse = śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ.
In the First Canto, first part, Third Chapter. Where is Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Call him. Śṛṇvatām sva... You can find out in the index.
hṛdy antaḥ stho abhadrāṇi
vidhunoti suhṛt satām
This process should be adopted. Hear about Kṛṣṇa, without any prejudice. Then everything will be... S-r-i, yes?
Prabhupāda: S-r-i, yes. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ.
Prabhupāda: R. Sva-kathāḥ. S-v-a. Yes. What...
Prabhupāda: Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. You are not learning; only Paṇḍita Gosāi is required. Where is Paṇḍita Gosāi?
Śrutakīrti: He went to...
Guest: Can I have a look at it, please?
Prabhupāda: Yes, give him. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ stho abhadrāṇi [SB 1.2.17]. [Bengali; asks Indian guests if they know Bengali and where they are from]
Śrutakīrti: It's not in the Third Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Let me see.
Devotee: First Canto, part two.
Prabhupāda: First Canto, where it is?
Śrutakīrti: S-r, śṛṇ, oh.
Prabhupāda: Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. You could not find? Here it is.
Śrutakīrti: I was looking s-i.
Prabhupāda: Find out.
Prabhupāda: Second Canto, no?
Śrutakīrti: 107, Second Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Second Chapter, Second Chapter, seventeenth verse, yes.
hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi
vidhunoti suhṛt satām
Prabhupāda: Vidhunoti suhṛt satām. What is the meaning?
Śrutakīrti: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."
Prabhupāda: This is the process. If you hear about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa is within yourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. When He sees you are anxious, then He helps you in cleansing the dirty things within your heart. Purport read.
Śrutakīrti: "Messages of the Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa are nondifferent from Him. Whenever, therefore, offenseless hearing of God is undertaken, it is to be understood that Lord Kṛṣṇa is present there in the form of transcendental sound, which is as powerful as the Lord personally. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, in His Śikṣāṣṭaka, declares clearly that the holy name of the Lord has all the potencies of the Lord and that He has endowed His innumerable names with the same potency. There is no rigid fixture of time, and anyone can chant the holy name with attention and reverence at his convenience. The Lord is so kind to us that He can be present before us personally in the form of transcendental sound, but unfortunately we have no taste for hearing and glorifying the Lord's name and activities. We have already discussed developing a taste for hearing and chanting the holy sound. It is done through the medium of service to the pure devotee of the Lord.
"The Lord is reciprocally respondent to His devotees. When He sees that a devotee is completely sincere in getting admittance to the transcendental service of the Lord and thus become eager to hear about Him, the Lord acts from within the devotee in such a way that the devotee may easily go back to Him. The Lord is more anxious to take us back into His kingdom than we can desire. Most of us do not desire at all to go back to Godhead. Only a very few men want to go back to Godhead. But anyone who desires to go back to Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa helps in all respects.
"One cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless one is perfectly cleared of all sins. The material sins are products of our desires to lord it over material nature. It is very difficult to get rid of such desires. Women and wealth are very difficult problems for the devotee making progress on the path of back to Godhead. Many stalwarts in the devotional line fell victim to these allurements and thus retreated from the path of liberation. But when one is helped by the Lord Himself, the whole process becomes as easy as anything by the divine grace of the Lord.
"To become restless in the contact of women and wealth is not an astonishment, because every living being is associated with such things from a remote time, practically immemorial, and it takes time to recover from this foreign nature. But if one is engaged in hearing the glories of the Lord, gradually he realizes his real position. By the grace of God such a devotee gets sufficient strength to defend himself from the state of disturbances, and gradually all disturbing elements are eliminated from his mind."
Prabhupāda: The prescribed methods are there. We have to adopt it. Without adopting the prescribed method, nobody can advance. But in this age the prescribed method is very simple = simply to hear the holy name of the Lord.
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
[Cc. Ādi 17.21]
So an urge for understanding God there is, after struggle for material sense gratification. Bodily concept of life means material sense gratification. The Western world is after that, material sense gratification. One who is little advanced, he wants to know more than material sense gratification. That is good sign. And those who are simply absorbed in material sense gratification, they are in the lower stage of animal life. So what is the present civilization, Western, what is your opinion? What they are for?
Guest (2): I don't know actually. I'm a doc. I'm trying to find some answer, but what difference does it make? Suppose a person thinks of God all his life and dies, and a person who doesn't think of God at all also dies. What is our life after death?
Guest (2): Then why do we have to think of God? Why do we have to forget about the material world?
Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that there is life after death.
Guest (2): Why? Is it a faith or belief?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not faith, belief. It is a fact. Just like I have already given you the example. You were a child. That body's no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. Therefore the conclusion is that although the body has changed, but you, the soul, the knower, is still there. Therefore, when this body will be changed, you'll exist in another body.
Guest (2): In what form?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. First of all you have to accept this fact, that you have to change this body, as you have already changed so many times. Tathā... Kṛṣṇa first of all says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Antara, another body, you have to accept.
Guest: Coming back to your own question of the present world and to what we are in...
Guest: Coming back to your first question when you asked that what do you think about this present world, or the present trend of present civilization...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know. Even big, big professors. I talked with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. He said, "Swāmījī, after annihilation of this body, there is nothing."
Guest (2): Well, that has brought this disaster and is causing more and more trouble, I think. More and more in practice of medicine, if we look into the practice of medicine, I think, we are more pressed with the problem of mental illness. I should say in the region of thirty percent of our time is devoted for people suffering from mental anxiety, which we call "anxiety state," and partly depression. I think most of the time, I surmise... Part of the problem is not that they are not well fed; it is not that they are not well dressed. Part of the problem is to accept as they are and to think of something which is present. I mean, they could believe that there is something beyond this world, and if they can accept that, probably they will be better off and they will accept their present inconveniences more easily and will not be depressed.
Guest (2): And that is the present problem.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā = mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
If one is engaged in his cultivation of spiritual life, then he should tolerate all these bodily pains and pleasure, because they come and go. Just like you are medical man, you treat some patient. Suppose he's attacked with fever. Everyone knows that fever has come; after some time, it will go away. So the one who is cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's not very much disturbed with fever. He knows that it has come, it will go automatically, if we fast for few days. There is a Bengali proverb, jvaranpar ketanadali palab...[?] If you receive one unwanted guest and fever, you don't give him eat, then it will go away. Unwanted guest, if you do not give him food, he'll go away. Even a fever also, if you don't eat, it will go automatically.
So after all, these things come and go. The example is given, śīta-uṣṇa. Śīta means winter and uṣṇa means summer. As the summer comes and go, winter comes and go, so these kinds of sufferings, they come and go. So Kṛṣṇa is advising, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Therefore a brāhmaṇa's qualification is titikṣa. Śamo damaḥ śaucaṁ titikṣa, toleration. They're not very much bothered with the bodily pains and pleasure. They come and go. They're engaged in real business, how to realize Brahman. So if one is engaged in the prime business of life, Brahman understanding, athāto brahma jijñāsā, for him these bodily pains and pleasure becomes minor things.
Therefore we see such examples, that one saintly person is living in the Himalayan mountain = there is snowfall, there is no proper place, still they live. Still, there are many. But nowadays it is not possible. Voluntarily, they used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, just to tolerate these pains and pleasure of the body equally and engaged in their own business of spiritual understanding. That is human civilization. Human civilization, that is described in the..., tapo divyam. For the supreme spiritual realization one should undergo tapasya. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. It is the instruction of Rṣabhadeva that this body... Everyone has got body. Cats and dogs and hogs, they have got body. We have also body. The kings and demigods, they have got body. Everyone has got body. But especially the body of nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke, in the human society. This body is not meant for kaṣṭān kāmān, to satisfy sense gratification with very, very hard labor like the hogs and dogs. Then what it is meant for? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed [SB 5.5.1] = "My dear boys, this body is meant for tapasya." Why tapasya? Your question. Yena śuddhyed. Your existence will be purified. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. Then you'll get perpetual, blissful life.
So everyone is seeking after blissful life, but that is not possible in this materialistic way of life. That is not possible. One must seek blissful life in spiritual understanding, brahma-saukhyam, brahma-sukha. That is required. Transcendental pleasure. Ramante yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani. Satyānande, real happiness, in the spiritual understanding, spiritual platform. Iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahmābhidhīyate [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. That kind of enjoyment is called rāma. Ramaṇa. From ramaṇa, rāma. That is wanted. So there is no education at the present moment. But people are hankering, Western people especially. They have seen enough of this material enjoyment, now they are hankering after their spiritual life. Therefore they look forward towards the Vedic culture. This is the answer.
Guest: What is the purpose of Lord for creating human life or animal life or so many things? Why...?
Prabhupāda: That is, that is next question, that you have to accept next body, but what kind of body you'll have? That you can see, that there are so many varieties of life, body. You have to accept one of them. Just like when you were admitted into school for education, the idea was that you'll be educated, and according to your education, there are so many posts you'll have to occupy. Just like you are lawyer, he's medical man, somebody's engineer, somebody else, somebody... Varieties of field of activities. So according to the perfection of one's education, he has to accept one post like that. Similarly, next body means according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. You are preparing your next life. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
So according to your culture, your mentality, your condition of life will be at the end of your life. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. The whole life, as we have thought, as we have absorbed in thought, the same mentality will be concentrated at the time of your death. So, a god's mentality or dog's mentality or hog's mentality, or... There are so many kinds of. So you'll get next body according to that mentality.
Guest: Yes. Can you scientifically prove this, sir? I mean is it purely a matter of belief or...
Prabhupāda: This is science. Our science is perfect science, because we are receiving knowledge from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. And the so-called science is imperfect because the knowledge is received from imperfect person. However great scientist you may be, you have to admit that your senses are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: So imperfect senses can give imperfect knowledge. That is not scientific knowledge. What you are thinking scientific knowledge, that is bogus, because the man who has given that knowledge, he's imperfect. How you can expect perfect knowledge from the imperfect person?
Guest: It's a question of degree.
Prabhupāda: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you?
Guest: Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative---one who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent; he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle," this is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: after death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science, who's imperfect.
Guest (1): So the question of belief comes first.
Prabhupāda: It is not belief; it is fact.
Guest (1): Yes, but if you say fact, how do you prove?
Prabhupāda: This is proof, Kṛṣṇa says.
Guest (1): It has been said by Kṛṣṇa. Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgment, previous judgment, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation, what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect.
And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says... How Kṛṣṇa is perfect, Kṛṣṇa is giving example, side by side = Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, he's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, youthhood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done?
Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that, similarly, after finishing this body... It may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. This material, eight kinds of materials---earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego. Do you think so? That there is another body, made of mind, intelligence and ego?
Guest (2): Not, not in that sense.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind is there. Everyone knows you have got mind, I have got mind. But can you see the mind? Can you see the intelligence?
Guest (2): These are something abstract, you know.
Prabhupāda: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see.
Guest (2): Well, at present, we can..., we have got three different methods of studying intelligence, starting from six months onward up to the adult.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee. Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.
Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?
Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than the intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
buddhes tu paratas yaḥ saḥ
First of all, gross understanding. This body means the senses, indriyāṇi. Those who are animals, they are thinking this is all. But they do not understand that these indriyas are being controlled by the mind. If one's mind is, what is called, distorted, then the indriyas cannot work. That is madman. You try to cure the mental disease just to bring him in proper position to control the senses. Otherwise, he does not know how to control the senses. Therefore the controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind there is intelligence. And above the intelligence there is soul. So we cannot see even the mind, intelligence and ego. And how we can see the soul? The soul has got his magnitude. And without understanding, without education about the soul, about the spirit soul, any other understanding, that is animal understanding.
[aside:] Give him prasāda. All.
Guest (4) [English woman, Pearl]: Could I ask please, if prāṇa is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prāṇa is the life force, isn't it?
Pradyumna: She says prāṇa is the life force?
Pearl: Is it in different parts of the body?
Prabhupāda: These are air. Prāṇa, in the prāṇa, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called prāṇāyāma. That is yogic process.
Pearl: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Prāṇa is a life air which carries the soul. Is very small, atomic. [about prasāda] And not our men. [laughs] Give her. She's anxious. Give her. Give her one.
Pearl: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Give her one, that girl. Give all. [Bengali] You are a lawyer. [Bengali] That is not your business. You must know it.
Guest (1): No, I'm just... [Bengali]
Prabhupāda: That's a good qualification.
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: Why should you be bad qualified? [Bengali] Logic... This is logical = tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Where is the illogic? You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youthhood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical. Don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na... Dhīraḥ, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands, "Yes, it is all right."
Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me...
Prabhupāda: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic.
Guest (2): I don't say that, but I'm not mentally prepared for that extent.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you are not prepared, then you learn how to become prepared. Then the same conclusion comes = that logic, you can give to the animals, but he cannot take it.
Guest (3): I don't think that logic can explain anything.
Prabhupāda: No, logic cannot. But still, as much logic you require, that logic is there.
Guest (3): Yes, but I don't know what Mr. Howard wants logic about. I don't know. But logic cannot explain anything and everything. And if mathematics or arithmetic, if we go through them, at one stage we can prove ten is equal to zero or nine is equal to zero. It is also possible by step by step...
Prabhupāda: That may be possible, but it has no practical use. It has no practical use. If the banker gives you zero and you accept nine, then it is practical. But if you theoretically say all these things, that may you keep it in your pocket, but practically it has no use, that nine equal to zero and two equal to zero. That is not practical use.
Guest (3): As far as logic, I don't think logic can explain anything and everything.
Prabhupāda: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji?
Guest (3): Mr. Howla.[?]
Prabhupāda: Howla? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic. That's all. Authority. Is it not?
Guest (3): Yes, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority, śabda-pramāṇa. The best evidence, śabda-pramāṇa. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramāṇa, śabda-pramāṇa is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya.
[Bengali] [Indian guests leave]
[background whispered conversation between Mukunda and Pearl]
Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Mukunda: And she wants to become initiated.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Pearl: I would like to have a Sanskrit name, too, please.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you'll have.
Pearl: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: You'll have. You like to be bald-headed?
Pearl: [laughs] No, I think I'll keep my hair, if you don't mind. I can't give up everything.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Pearl: If my leg could be healed, and I want to advance spiritually.
Prabhupāda: Well, leg, you are different from leg. Yes. Even leg is not healed, you can be healed.
Pearl: You mean healed spiritually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real healing.
Pearl: Because it's keeping me from things I should be doing, you see. I can't meet all my responsibilities through it.
Prabhupāda: [aside:] Give me little water. When they come to logic, when they give logic... [laughter]
Guest (5): Prabhupāda, they don't want any.
Prabhupāda: That is the dog's obstinacy. That is the mentality.
Guest (5): They lost their intelligence by this civilization or by this culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Adānta-gobhir, by losing that intelligence they are going to the hell. They do not know it. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By uncontrolled senses... Because as soon as they come to spiritual life, they have to control senses. So that they do not like. That is very difficult.
Guest (5): Like he said = "I'm not prepared for that."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually they are not prepared. Then you suffer.
Guest (5): Then you try to be prepared.
Prabhupāda: They are not prepared, because as soon as they understand that they are going to be one of these varieties of life, they shudder. Therefore they do not like to understand this. If by logic I prove that you are going to be a dog next life, that is very difficult. Just like one astrologer has said that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Sweden. You know that?
Guest (5): No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In Delhi, one astrologer.
Guest (5): Delhi, some astrologer said?
Guest (5): What does the government of India say about that? Any comment?
Prabhupāda: That I do not know.
Guest (5): Are they going to worship there? [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra? If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also.
Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. And Bhagavad-gītā was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is = tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he did not understand dehāntara-prāptiḥ. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. What do you think, Bhadra Kṛṣṇa? The dehāntara-prāptiḥ, do they understand?
Bhadra Kṛṣṇa: It's not something known.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not understand.
Guest (6): [Bengali] Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad-gītā. But how the name of Rāma has come when he died? The name of Rāma, Hare Rāma, has come from his last word. How it has come? It is, it is...
Prabhupāda: Practice, practice. Raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.
Guest (6): So that came at the last word.
Guest (6): It is due to his pious or practice?
Prabhupāda: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act.
Guest (6): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but...
Prabhupāda: No. He did not know, but because he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma, that has given him this effect. Yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Muhammadan. He said "hā rāma." He wanted to speak "harāma," but it become "hā rāma." That is the... He did not know anything about Rāma, but the name Rāma is so powerful that although he said, "harāma," it effected---yes.
Guest (6): Everybody.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, but as he chanted "hā rāma," that has been effective.
Pearl: I wondered what "Rāma" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rāma, you see.
Prabhupāda: Rāma means...
Guest (6): So it was not due to his pious activities, it was only he was practicing.
Prabhupāda: No, that is pious activity. That is pious activity.
Guest (6): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rāma, raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.
Prabhupāda: He was a pious man.
Guest (6): He was pious man.
Guest (6): So he chanted "Rāma" in practice.
Prabhupāda: Daily he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. So...
Guest (6): [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting...
[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rāma...
Guest (6): [laughs] No.
Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rāma, he was pious, although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rāma is a fact, Kṛṣṇa is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rāma, glories of Kṛṣṇa. He took the chanting of Rāma for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nāma-aparādha. Sarva-śubha-kriyā-sāmyam api pramādaḥ [Padma Purāṇa]. He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rāma. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.
Guest (6): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...
Prabhupāda: But he also accepted "Mahatma," although what...
Guest (6): But not political post.
Prabhupāda: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great. What is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rāma, [knock on door; aside comment] that he did not. He took it, "Rāma," as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said "Rāma." So...
Guest (6): So you think he has gone to heaven or some... What is his position?
Prabhupāda: No... But because he did not understand Rāma, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position.
Guest (6): High position.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet
Guest (6): Still in the material world.
Śrutakīrti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world.
Prabhupāda: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahmā. [laughs] But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain.
Guest (6): Then he has to come back again.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the...
[aside:] find out that verse. That is explained in the... Hmm. That verse, yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjayate. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. But he did not understand Bhagavad-gītā, that's a fact. [break]
Guest (6): But what about this position of Vālmīki or Rāmāyaṇa?
Prabhupāda: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rāma.
Guest (7): They knew.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not in vague understanding.
Guest (7): He wouldn't be able to write Rāmāyaṇa if he didn't understand Lord Rāmacandra?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years.
Guest (7): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kurukṣetra is this body, five Pāṇḍavas is the five senses. And this is all interpretation concoction.
Prabhupāda: [laughs] He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand; it doesn't matter.
Guest (6): The name is so powerful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that?
Pradyumna: Prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān... [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupāda: Ah, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. This is the... So puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān means heavenly planet. Prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet, where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is that, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān?
Pradyumna: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ.
Prabhupāda: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ: for a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way, ten thousand years. Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. What is it? Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ?
Pradyumna: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupāda: Ah. Then again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower-grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding = tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. "After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. You come direct to Me." That is perfection.
You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years' living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate [Caitanya-candrāmṛta]. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets. Ākāśa, it is just like will of the wisp, something..., just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs. "Which has no existence." Just like in Bengali we say ghora-ḍima. Ghora-ḍima. Ḍima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on = "the egg of horse." So it has no existence, but the word is there. Similarly... What do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.
Guest (6): Hawai-kila.
Prabhupāda: Hawai-kila, yes. Hawai-kila, yes. Hawai-kila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like the Vaiṣṇava considers the heavenly planets, that hawai-kila. That's all.
Guest (7): This rich birth is important for self-realization?
Prabhupāda: Next birth?
Devotees: Rich birth.
Guest (7): To be born in a rich family.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good..., has got good association, direction, then he can think that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how shall I utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Māyā dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine, woman." That's all.
Guest (6): People say about Uraya Karan Singh...
Guest (6): Uraya Karan Singh.
Prabhupāda: Karan Singh?
Guest (6): He was [indistinct] of Kashmir. He's a very pious man, and because rich birth and he is a pious as well, is it?
Guest (6): Very religious and...
Prabhupāda: No, I have seen him. He's religious temperament. Not very, but...
Guest (6): He was in Delhi. Delhi we met. [indistinct comments by others]
Prabhupāda: He loves Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (6): [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: Twelve hours?
Guest (6): Two hours. It was nearly two hours.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, he's a good man.
Guest (6): That's a good example, example like that. There are vary examples.
Guest (7): Likes the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he's a good man. He's good scholar also, educated.
Guest (6): He was coming but I don't know why he has not come due to this...? This last year in the Bhāgavatam discourses he accepted he would come. We got his letter also.
Prabhupāda: This is due to government post. [laughter]
Guest (7): And he also accepted an invitation, we invited him. He said he'd also come, but this Pakistan war started.
Prabhupāda: Still there are so many respectable person came. The governor came, the high-court justices came, and that, the Canadian Ambassador came. Many men came. And he was very humble. He sat down below.
Guest (6): [to other guest] You didn't see the High Commissioner there. He sat down.
Prabhupāda: He's also a very nice man.
Guest (6): Maybe some pious activities that they have.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Guest (6): But this is their duty to respect. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...in this planet. In order to be elevated to the kingdom of God, they cannot go directly from the heavenly planet. They'll have to come here.
Guest (6): There are many stories in Mahābhārata. Many, many kings, they went to heavenly planets, and from there. Many stories.
Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye martya-lokaṁ viśanti [Bg. 9.21].
[to lady guest:] You have got prasāda? Not yet. Come on. Any more? Any more? Another? [lady guest laughs]
Come on. [end]