Room Conversation with George Harrison & the Shankars , London , 1973-08-05

Prabhupāda: ...big, big palace.

George: Yeah. Uhh, this is Lakshmi Shankar, Viji Shankar and Sooma Shankar...

Prabhupāda: I see.

George: ...and Dori.

[brief Hindi exchange with Shankars; laughter]

Prabhupāda: So, you're keeping all right, healthy?

George: Just about.

Prabhupāda:

Ātmā means the body, mind or soul. Ātmā. All these can be designated as ātmā. Those who are in bodily concept of life, for them ātmā means this body. Those who are in mental concept of life---somebody, they think the mind is the soul---so for them, ātmā means mind. And those who are actually in knowledge, the ātmā means the soul. In the śāstra there says that either of these, ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet, you must first take care of, of this ātmā.

Then tato dharma: then you must take care of your religious principles. Ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet tato dharmaṁ tato dhanam. Then you try to protect your money. [laughter] Because ātmānaṁ vikṛti sati, if your atma is in disturbed condition, tato dharmaṁ tato dhanam, then where you keep your religion and money? So ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet.

Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: I've got I got a letter from Zaehner today...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...where he not only apologizes, but he begs you to see him. [laughs]

[aside to George:] That professor we talked about last time, who wrote all those nasty things, that Kṛṣṇa's immoral and all.

George: No, what happened?

Śyāmasundara: We were talking about it last time you were here.

Prabhupāda: Let me see what is letter...

Śyāmasundara: I'll read it. [laughter] He said, "Thank you for your letter of 28th July. You've put me in a rather embar..." This is a letter that Mukunda wrote to him. He's addressing, "Dear Mr. Grant." "You've put me in a rather embarrassing position, since I have only just received a long letter from, I think, the President of your London center," Satsvarūpa, "strongly criticizing me for what the Observer alleges. I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol..." Oh, I "...what the Observer alleges I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol.

He apparently thinks I am a narādhama, among other things," [laughter] "and clearly a most undesirable person in every way. It is true that I quoted passages from the Upanisads and the Gītā which imply that the mukta is..., that the mukta regards good and evil...," no, "disregards good and evil, and pointed out the dangers of this doctrine if it fell into the hands of people who have received no instruction. I also pointed out that this is equally true of the Bible, which is..., which was, of course, not reported in the Observer.

In view of all this, I wonder if your master is still interested in seeing me. I rather doubt whether we would have very much in common, since there would appear to be little common ground between one who describes himself as 'His Divine Grace,' who is in the direct disciplic line from Kṛṣṇa, and one who, with the best will in the world, cannot but be bewildered by the proliferation of persons who make similar claims on behalf of themselves. However, if you still feel that a meeting would serve any useful purpose, please let me know."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Śyāmasundara: "Yours sincerely, R. C. Zaehner."

Prabhupāda: So if you can read the letter which Satsvarūpa has sent him, they..., they can hear.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I guess you want to hear the letter that...

Prabhupāda: It is in response to that letter.

Śyāmasundara: This is in response to this.

Devotee (1): Yeah.

George: Well what did he say, the professor?

Śyāmasundara: He, he accused Kṛṣṇa of being immoral. [laughter]

George: On what grounds?

Śyāmasundara: Because He was killing...

George: On the battlefield?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and 'cause He didn't regard evil and..., good and evil, that they were both the same.

Prabhupāda: Who says things like that?

Revatīnandana: Exactly. And he says "amoral"– or neither immoral nor moral, but without morality.

Śyāmasundara: And it says, "Dear Professor Zaehner," and Prabhupāda actually wrote the letter, but Satsvarūpa, his secretary, signed it. It says, "I am writing in response to your recent address to the World Congress of Faiths, which was attended by several of our members and which was subsequently reported in the Observer, 22nd July 1973, under the title 'The Logic of Charles Manson.' In your speech you have accused Kṛṣṇa, the speaker of the Vedic text Bhagavad-gītā, as immoral. Exactly how you have tried to substantiate that Kṛṣṇa is the teacher of an immoral and amoral dangerous doctrine is a matter which can be discussed another time. But I wish to simply point out to you that having accused Kṛṣṇa, you have as such fallen into a position of being very strongly accused yourself by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself. As He has stated in the Bhagavad-gītā..."

[to devotee:] You want to read that?

Pradyumna: Yeah.

Śyāmasundara: " 'Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by... ' "

Prabhupāda: He is actual [indistinct] the lowest of the mankind.

Śyāmasundara: Narādhamāḥ, that's what he..., that means "lowest of mankind." " '...whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.' In other words, Lord Kṛṣṇa is stating that if one is in opposition to Him, he must fall into one of these four categories = either he is grossly foolish, like the ass or the rascal person; or he is the lowest of mankind, without religion, although acting as a civilized person; or he may have a good intelligence or academic standing, but his intelligence has been stolen away by illusion; or he is an outright demon bent on the destruction of mankind. So you are accused by this statement of the Bhagavad-gītā as belonging to one of these four categories of miscreants.

"Neither can Kṛṣṇa's charge against you be taken lightly. Kṛṣṇa's statements are supported by all the ācāryas, or saintly persons and spiritual masters of the Vedic philosophy. Going back hundreds and thousands of years, those who are the molders of the Hindu or Indian destiny, such as Madhva, Rāmānuja, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, as well as Vyāsadeva, Brahmā, Nārada, and in the recent age Lord Caitanya and the disciplic succession up to our own spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, all accept Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose statements are taken as the highest authority. Even Śaṅkarācārya, the leader of the impersonalist school of Vedic thought, has accepted, nārāyaṇaḥ paro 'vyaktāt: 'Nārāyaṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is above this material manifestation.' Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is accepted as truth by virtually all the leaders of Vedic philosophy since time immemorial.

"So we are laymen, and we have to choose. We are faced with two accusations = yours against Lord Kṛṣṇa as being immoral, and Lord Kṛṣṇa's accusation against you as a rascal," [laughter] "the lowest of mankind, whose intelligence is stolen, and of the nature of a demon."

Prabhupāda: We are placing ourselves laymen. Now, whose accusation we shall accept---either Kṛṣṇa's or yours? That is our problem.

Śyāmasundara: "As we have just explained, Kṛṣṇa's description of your miscreant position is supported by all the stalwart ācāryas without exception. Nor can we take the view that the above-named philosophers are sectarian in their support of Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Truth. You are taken as a great Sanskrit scholar, but apparently you have not noted the commentary on Bhagavad-gītā in Sanskrit by His Holiness Rāmānuja Ācārya.

At every verse Rāmānuja has presented many quotes from the Upaniṣads to support his favoring Kṛṣṇa's position as the very source of knowledge and liberation. So Kṛṣṇa's position is very solid among those who are the most reputable scholars. But who will agree with you and your accusation against Lord Kṛṣṇa? The Vedic scripture Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam clearly states that only men of a like nature to yours would join you in taking such an infamous position."

Prabhupāda: Śva vid-varaha ustra kharaiḥ. Read it.

Pradyumna:

Śyāmasundara: " 'Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils.' In other words, although you have become a leader of the so-called learned society of men," he's a big professor at Oxford, "because you are opposed to glorifying Lord Kṛṣṇa, your followers are not actually to the human standard," [laughter] "but are no better than the above-named animals.

"According to the Bhāgavatam, if one is essentially godless and opposed to acknowledging the supremacy of the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa, then although he may be big or great in the world, his greatness is no more than the greatness of a big animal who is looked up to by smaller animals. By the estimation of scriptures and ācāryas, such a so-called big man is never given a place in the category of man on account of his atheistic temperament. So a sane man seeking truth will certainly be inclined to follow the standard accepted version of the greatest philosophers and true humanitarians in the history of the science of God. But who will follow you in your accusation against Lord Kṛṣṇa?

"It is unfortunate that you have assumed a conversant authoritative attitude towards the Vedic scriptures. To have actual knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and the Bhagavad-gītā is not such an easy thing. Unfortunately, many people have no doubt assumed that you know all about Kṛṣṇa and the Bhagavad-gītā, because of your holding a professorship in Eastern Religion at Oxford University and because you have published a number of books. But that is not the criteria for understanding Kṛṣṇa. As Lord Kṛṣṇa states in the Bhagavad-gītā,"

Pradyumna:

Śyāmasundara: " 'Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.' It is not that one can be a cigarette smoker and liquor drinker and habituated to common vices and yet speak something about Kṛṣṇa. Even among those who are above all these things, who are siddhas, perfect souls, hardly one of such siddhas can understand Kṛṣṇa. So because you are not even trying to become a siddha, we have to conclude by honest reason that your statements about Lord Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā have no value.

"Your version that Kṛṣṇa is acting immorally is not true. Arjuna, the original disciple of Bhagavad-gītā, who heard it directly and understood it from Kṛṣṇa Himself, spoke as follows:"

Pradyumna:

Śyāmasundara: " 'Arjuna said = You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person.' Here the word pavitraṁ means 'the purest.' So Arjuna is addressing Kṛṣṇa as the purest, the Supreme Pure, and this is your rascaldom, that you are accusing the most pure as immoral. In the Bhāgavatam it is described that when the witch Pūtanā came to Kṛṣṇa, she tried to kill Him during His childhood pastimes by smearing her breast with poison and offering it to baby Kṛṣṇa to suck.

Kṛṣṇa not only sucked her breast but sucked out her life air, and thus the demon gave up her life. But Kṛṣṇa is so moral that although Pūtanā came to kill Him, because He accepted her as a mother and took milk from her breast, Kṛṣṇa awarded her liberation after death and gave her the same exalted place as His own loving mother, Yaśodā. Also, on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, where the Bhagavad-gītā was spoken, those who came to fight with Kṛṣṇa and were killed by Him were granted eternal liberation in the spiritual sky.

"Because He is absolute, whatever Kṛṣṇa does is the highest morality and works factually for everyone's ultimate happiness and well-being. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are hardly understandable to the nondevotee, that these are the authorized descriptions of the Vedic literature. The people in general should be warned of your position so that you will not mislead them by misinterpretation. They should not be baffled by your outward appearance as a great scholar. If we consult those who are truly authorities, the great ācāryas, we understand your position is very unfavorable and can only be relieved by your attempting to publicly rectify accusations so foolishly made against the name and words of Lord Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā. Yours sincerely, Satsvarūpa." Also, that Alistair Hardy wrote a nice letter.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Today.

George: Who is Alistair Hardy?

Devotee (2): He's [indistinct] a religious experience researcher.

Śyāmasundara: He's just saying that he'd like to come again sometime.

Prabhupāda: I shall invite him again. Lord Brockway, he also came. Fenner Brockway.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: He, and also [indistinct].

Revatīnandana: House of Lords. House of Lords.

Prabhupāda: Now I propose to start a Society. I will explain to you, Śyāmasundara, [clears throat] The Society of the Sinless Man. How do you like this idea?

George: Good idea, but mightn't get many members. [laughter]

Śyāmasundara: No, but everyone will say, "Oh, I am sinless," [laughter] "I'll join." Otherwise if we go to them and they'll have to say, "Oh, then I am a sinner."

Prabhupāda: Yesterday, Doctor Sumehta, Schumacher he came.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Another, John...?

Śyāmasundara: Papworth.

Prabhupāda: Papworth. So we have three our stock. So [chuckling] they agreed half, but not fully, that what is sinful life. And unless people become sinless, it is not possible to understand what is God. That's a fact. Because as we have stated,

So Kṛṣṇa, God, He is pavitraṁ paramaṁ, the Supreme Pure. So without becoming pure, nobody can understand what is the nature of God. Just like without becoming fire, you cannot enter into fire. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:

So people are indulging in sinful activity, so in that position it is not possible to understand God. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

So our movement is... It is very difficult to find out in this age actually a sinless man; therefore we are giving chance of hearing this mahā-mantra,

So if one is given this chance, as we are actually experiencing... When I started this movement in 1966 I simply, you knowing about that, that Tompkinson Square? I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all, for three hours, from two 'til five. And the boys and girls, they are coming, dancing. In this way gradually they came. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that ceto-darpana-marjanam: this process, simply by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, the heart will be cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ. Darpaṇa. Darpaṇa means "mirror." Just like if you want to see your face, you have a clear mirror, you can see exactly your face. Similarly, when our this cetah, which is full of dirty things, if it is polished, if it is cleansed, then we can see our real face, what I am. That is, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ. And as soon as one understands what he is, then immediately his all problems are solved.

Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ. We are suffering just like in the blazing forest fire. When there is fire in the forest all the animals become perturbed, disturbed, especially the snakes. Other animals, they have got legs, they can jump over. But the snakes, they have to crawl. So when there is fire in the forest, the dry foliage that catch fire, so these snakes, they die first. They cannot jump; they have to crawl. And the snake means envious. The snake business is envious. Without any fault it will bite, and the man will die. Envious. Therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said,

That there are two jealous, envious beings = one is the snake and another is the..., a man envious. So the envious man is more dangerous than the snake. Why? That you can bring under control the snake by herbs and mantra. Still in India there are experts who can by mantra can catch snake, venomous snake. There is a art. So it can be under, brought under control. But the envious man cannot be, I mean, brought under control; therefore he is more dangerous. So we are living in such world.

In another place, Prahlāda Mahārāja has said that when his father was killed, Hiraṇyakaśipu, he requested Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva that "Now kindly mitigate Your anger, because nobody is sorry for killing my father, that he was just like a snake and scorpion." So sādhur api...

[aside:] Bring me verse.

That even sādhu, they also take pleasure when a snake or scorpion is killed. A sādhu, modeta, vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā [SB 7.9.14]. A sādhu does not want killing of any living entity, but when a scorpion or a snake is killed, even one sādhu also takes pleasure, "Yes, it is right." They are so dangerous.

So the whole world is now full with krūraḥ, sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ, envious. Whole world is surcharged with enviousness. Nation to nation, person to person, there is competition. So how they can be happy? Therefore Kṛṣṇa..., Caitanya Mahāprabhu suggests that "Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, then this blazing forest fire will be extinguished." Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ. Then śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ, that actual life of knowledge will begin. And at last He says, paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. And in the Bhāgavat also it is confirmed,

Simply by chanting.

So those who are actually thinking of the welfare of the whole human society, they should combinedly try how to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. People may simply have some chance to hear. Then gradually everything will become nice. So this is our mission. We are trying to give chance people to hear harer nāma. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. It is not that as so many, this pantheist or the so-called Māyāvādīs, they say that "You can chant any name. You can..." No. That is not. Śāstra says, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, or Viṣṇu. Harer nāma: the name of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not anyone's, everyone's name. No. So that is also another enviousness = "Why Kṛṣṇa's nāma should be chanted? We have got our own God." So envious, even to Kṛṣṇa. These are the difficulties.

Still, it is our duty, as it is described in the śāstras, to give everyone the chance of hearing this holy name of the Lord = Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So begin some kṛṣṇa-kīrtana. So we chant? Yes? Begin saṅkīrtana. Bring kartālas.

[Śrīla Prabhupāda begins clapping. Chanting lasts about 8 minutes, concluding with Prabhupāda chanting prema dhvani.]

Thank you very much.

[devotees offer obeisances]

So, prasādam is ready?

Devotee (4): Revatīnandana?

Revatīnandana: It's all cooked.

Devotee (4): Downstairs?

Revatīnandana: It should be in the kitchen and maybe keeping warm in the oven, the small stove. You know those two stoves? The white stove in the oven.

Śyāmasundara: Can we play the tapes?

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: George has brought a tape of those songs like Jaya Jagadīśa Hare...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: ...and other songs that they made...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...with Ravi.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes?

[Hindi exchange while waiting for tape to play]

Śyāmasundara: Turn it up.

[first song---Jaya Jagadīśa Hare---about 4 minutes.]

Prabhupāda: Jaya Jagadīśa Hare. Very nice.

Śyāmasundara: There's more songs?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: There's more.

[another piece begins, with flute introduction]

Prabhupāda: Who has played that flute?

George: Hariprasad Chaurasia

Śyāmasundara: About Kṛṣṇa, this song. Ravi wrote this song.

[Song is Indian-style music arrangement with English lyrics. Examples of lyrics = "Kṛṣṇa, where are You?" "I hear Your flute," "Please come wipe my tears."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-pyāri?

Devotees: "Where are You?"

Prabhupāda: Oh, "Kṛṣṇa where You are?"

[Third piece begins---music background for spoken English lyrics = "Where has my glorious Kṛṣṇa gone, my only love? Without Him I feel so restless. There's no peace, no joy. Aching for Him, I cry out, but He does not hear. O my cruel love." Song then continues in Hindi.]

Prabhupāda: This is in Hindi.

Śyāmasundara: George has produced this record.

[Another piece begins. English introduction lyrics to string background = "You came to me in my dreams, O my beloved Kṛṣṇa, and whispered such sweet and tender things to me. I awoke startled = 'Where is my love? Where has He gone, my Kṛṣṇa? Oh, how can I face this night alone?' " Song continues in Hindi.]

Prabhupāda: [indistinct aside] Is it open? What is it?

George: The Kṛṣṇa song...

[music begins; background conversation between devotee and George]

Śyāmasundara: Same Kṛṣṇa song, but in Western style.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

[Music arrangement is Western style, lyrics in English = "I am missing You, O Kṛṣṇa. Where are You? Though I can't see You, I hear Your flute all around. Please come wipe my tears, and make me smile."]

Śyāmasundara: That's all.

Prabhupāda: There is a verse,

All the Gosvāmīs, they were executing their devotional service in Vṛndāvana, and this is their devotional attitude = he rādhe---"O Rādhārāṇī"; vraja-devike---"O the gopīs"; he rādhe vraja-devike, he nanda-sūno kutaḥ---"O the son of Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa, where you are all?"

Śyāmasundara: Where you are...?

Prabhupāda: All.

Śyāmasundara: All.

Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is always engaged with the gopīs, so the Gosvāmīs, they are searching, "Now I have come to Vṛndāvana. Where you are?" He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Kutaḥ means "Where you are all?" Just like the same thing = "Kṛṣṇa, where You are?" [laughter] It is very nice. Vira. This bhajana is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to feel separation for Kṛṣṇa. That is best motive, to feel separation. The more you feel...

So just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu demonstrated, for want of Kṛṣṇa He was becoming mad, ecstatic. This is Rādhārāṇī's attitude when Kṛṣṇa went to Vṛndāvana, er, Mathurā, leaving the gopīs in Vṛndāvana. So Kṛṣṇa knew that "All the gopīs will be overwhelmed on account of My separation," so He sent Uddhava to pacify them. At that time Rādhārāṇī displayed just like mad. So these songs are following the footsteps of Rādhārāṇī, feeling the separation of Kṛṣṇa. I think this morning I have explained one verse,

So this bhajana in separation of Kṛṣṇa, that is our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava philosophy = to feel separation from Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, govinda-viraheṇa me.

Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa, "In one moment is appearing to me just like twelve years," yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam, "and tears coming down just like torrents of rain." Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ: "The whole world appears to be vacant." Why? Govinda-viraheṇa me: "On account of separation from Govinda." So this bhajana is very perfect bhajana: feeling separation of Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, where You are? Kṛṣṇa, where You are?" This is our bhajana. It is not that "Kṛṣṇa I have now seen; my business is finished." No. [laughter] We should always feel separation. That is best. That will advance us in Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely.

So it is very nicely sung. So always feel separation of Kṛṣṇa. That will make our life very successful in understanding Kṛṣṇa.

George: I think a lot..., a lot of people are gonna hear Kṛṣṇa's name.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

George: A lot of people are gonna hear Kṛṣṇa's name maybe for the first time, through that song.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they will be benefited. You have done nice. You are distributing Kṛṣṇa's name and feeling separation. Which will have effect to the people. And Kṛṣṇa name and Kṛṣṇa is not different. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. So when we utter Kṛṣṇa's name, that means Kṛṣṇa is on my tongue, present. So, ataḥ kṛṣ..., uh,

The name cintāmaṇi, spiritual. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya, full spiritual, conscious. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ: the personality of all mellows. Nitya śuddho..., nitya śuddha-mukto, abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ: there is no difference between the name and the person Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference. Therefore if we chant Kṛṣṇa's name, especially in vira, in separation, that is the greatest perfection of life.

Purna. As Kṛṣṇa is purna,

Oṁ... What is that?

That is the Upaniṣad, Īśa Upaniṣad.

So Kṛṣṇa is pūrṇam. Kṛṣṇa's name is also pūrṇam, complete. So chanting Kṛṣṇa's name, we get complete benefit as by meeting Kṛṣṇa. As by meeting Kṛṣṇa. This will be realized as we go on thinking of Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice attempt.

Mālatī: [arrival of prasādam] That's Revatīnandana Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: So Revatīnandana Mahārāja, what you have done? [laughter]

Revatīnandana: You'll have to taste it.

Prabhupāda: No, which one? Which preparation you have made?

Śyāmasundara: All are his.

Prabhupāda: All? Everything?

Śyāmasundara: Everything except the purīs.

Prabhupāda: The samosā also yours? Ohhh. [light laughter] Very good. Now, begin. Prasāda prāpti-mātreṇa bhoktavyam. Take. Take. Begin. Yes.

George: On the last version of Kṛṣṇa-rāga[?], there's one of the devotees from the Los Angeles temple...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

George: ...came to play kartālas. I forget his name. "Rent-a-kartāla." [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

[break] ...and this can be united again in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This artificial division of human society can be united again on the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This United Nation program will not be successful. But on this platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness there will be unity. This is practical. We have got so many devotees from different parts of the world, but they do not think anymore in terms of bodily conception. No. They have forgotten. Either they are Englishman or American or Canadian or Indian, they have forgotten. They are on the platform of thinking that "We are servant of Kṛṣṇa." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is platform.

Before coming to the bhakti platform, one has to pass through this platform, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.

This is the platform. So we have to purify our consciousness, material consciousness, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman." No. This is only outward covering. But as spirit soul we are one. So this is called Brahman realization. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ American-asmi, Englishman-asmi---no. [laughter] "I am brahmāsmi." This is self-realization. This is self-realization, aham brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." So in that platform he is called purified.

So that is the definition of devotional service = sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, when one becomes freed from all designations.

Tat parat. Tattva means being connected with Kṛṣṇa, one becomes purified, nirmalam. And when one is purified, with the purified senses,

This is bhakti. When our senses are purified from the material contamination... Senses, you cannot... The Māyāvādī philosopher says that "You stop the activities of senses." That is not possible. It is not possible. As living entity we must have our senses. Without senses we are dead stone. So senses must be there. You cannot avoid it. That Māyāvāda philosophy, that "Give up your desire," how can I give up desire? That is not possible. So that is not really salvation. Desire you must have, because as living entity there must be desire. So desire should be purified. Now we are desiring for our personal gratification. So when the desire will be utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa...

That is Rādhārāṇī's attitude. They are lamenting. The desire is "How to see Kṛṣṇa? You are gone from us. We do not find that how we can live, because without Your service, our life is useless." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Where You are, Kṛṣṇa? I cannot serve You, then what is my life, this useless life?" Huh? Govinda-viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ: "The whole world, universe, is vacant without Your service, without seeing You." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So desire must be there. So desire must be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. Kṛṣṇendriya-prīti-vāñchā-tāre nāma 'prema. Ātmendriya-prīti-vāñchā-tāre nāma 'kāma' [Cc. Ādi 4.165]. So therefore Nārada Muni recommends = when our desires are purified, then all the senses, they are also purified. So when our senses are engaged to fulfill the desires of Kṛṣṇa, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170], that is bhakti. This is the definition of bhakti.

Anyābhilāṣitā. We cannot give up desire. But desire for other things except Kṛṣṇa's service, that should be given up.

We have got desire in jñāna platform, knowledge platform, speculative platform. We have desire on karma platform. Karma platform means desiring to gratify the senses. That is called karma platform. I do something, I get some profit, and that profit is engaged in my sense gratification. This is called karma. So similarly, there is activities in the jñāna platform. Jñāna platform means that I understand that I am not this body, that I am spirit soul, so my ultimate goal is to merge into the Supreme Spirit Soul. Unified. So that is also not perfect.

The perfect platform is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ: simply cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness which is favorable to Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ. That is bhakti, real. Just like Arjuna did. He decided in favor of Kṛṣṇa. In the beginning he was..., he decided in favor of himself = "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight. No, no. It is not possible to kill my kinsmen." In this way he gave up the bow and the arrows and sat down. Kṛṣṇa wanted him to fight, so his decision was not in favor of Kṛṣṇa. His decision was in favor of his personal satisfaction. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gītā was given lesson. And at last he agreed, "Yes. Now," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava, "Yes, now I will act in favor of You." So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So anyone has got some talent. So in the material world it is being utilized for..., in favor of his personal self. That is material way. So if you want perfection, then you should be acted in favor of Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The action is not to be changed, but instead of utilizing the talent in favor of my satisfaction---that is materialism---the same action when it is performed in favor of Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is pure. This is the difference between material and spiritual.

That is first-class devotion.

Therefore Bhāgavata conclusion is that,

Vibhāgaśaḥ, that according to Vedic civilization the divisions are varṇāśrama---four varṇas and four āśramas = brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Each, each āśrama has got his particular duty. So how one can become successful in acting in his particular occupational duty? That is, Bhāgavata gives the decision,

You do not require to change your position. You remain in your position. If you are talented as a musician, you remain as musician, as artist. And whatever you are---as ordinary worker, as medical man, as scientist, as philosopher---whatever you may be, you stay in your position. There is no hard..., varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. But if you want success in life, then,

Everyone has got his occupational duty, so saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam: if by your talent and by your work, if you can satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is success. That is success. So you may remain in your position. There is no need of changing your position. Remain in. Svanuṣṭhita, you remain in your position, but from that position you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then everything success. That is saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam. There are many other verses like that.

Uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Uttamaśloka is another name of Kṛṣṇa.

So by your musical talent if you simply glorify Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there is no change that you have to become a sannyāsi, you have to become..., give up this profession or become something else. No. You remain in your position. But with your talent, try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Try to glorify Kṛṣṇa. Then your talent is successful. It doesn't matter whether you are a musician or a war..., I mean to say, great soldier, warrior. Just like Arjuna.

He was a great soldier, warrior, fighter, and you are a musician. So if somebody thinks, "I am a musician. By singing nicely, Kṛṣṇa will be more satisfied," no. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, even fighting. Everything for Kṛṣṇa. So fighting is also not less than; otherwise how Arjuna became a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si, priyo 'si me: "You are My great devotee." But what did he do? He fought. Fought with who? With his own kinsmen, against his desire, against his will---but he wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.

So anything you do, it doesn't matter, but do it for Kṛṣṇa. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:

"Give it to Me." So this is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa from your position, then your life is successful, your profession is successful, everything is successful. And the spiritual platform, there is no such distinction that "Here is a person who is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and here is a person who is simply singing. Here is a person who is simply fighting." Materially there is difference, but when they are dovetailed in the service of Kṛṣṇa, they are all one.

Simply it has to be done in favor of Kṛṣṇa.

So you are all qualified artist, so by your art even in material platform you get so much adoration. Similarly, if you work in spiritual platform with the same art, this material adoration will be finished with the finishing of this body, but spiritual adoration, if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then that will go with you. That will go with you.

Spiritual asset is never lost. Spirit..., as spirit life is eternal, similarly, whatever you do for spiritual understanding, that is permanent. The Bhāgavat says therefore even by sentiment if one takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa but somehow or other he could not finish it---half way he fell down---still he is not loser. On the other hand, a person without Kṛṣṇa consciousness doing very nicely his job, but there is no gain. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness acting, even if you have done ten percent, twenty percent, there is greater success, because next life you will have to begin from twenty-one percent. But without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, from material consciousness whatever you do cent percent success, that is finished with your body. Again you have to begin another chapter next life. These are the verdict of the śāstras.

So our only request is that whatever you do... Kṛṣṇa also says, yat karoṣi. He doesn't say that "You do this." Yat karoṣi: "Whatever you do, the result you give Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27]. He is begging, "Give Me." [laughter] Yes, "Give Me." [Hindi] You understand? No? You do not understand English?

Woman Guest: English, yes. I don't understand Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: No. I was speaking in English.

Woman Guest: Yes, I understand English.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: So you can give her our addresses, in Paris, in Amsterdam. She is going there, if possible.

Śyāmasundara: Touring.

Woman Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In Germany also.

Woman Guest: In Berlin.

Prabhupāda: What is our Berlin address?

Haṁsadūta: Kurfurstendamm. You know that street? Kurfurstendamm. It's 153.

Śyāmasundara: Kurfurstendamm?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, 153.

Śyāmasundara: You have a place right on the main street? That's amazing. Main street of Berlin.

Prabhupāda: Oh. I have seen the picture. There is a broken church.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, on that street.

Prabhupāda: Heh?

Haṁsadūta: On that street.

Śyāmasundara: Memorial to Gedachtniskirche.

Prabhupāda: That was broken during...?

Haṁsadūta: The war.

Prabhupāda: War?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: By the Russians?

Haṁsadūta: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Or by the Americans? [laughter]

Śyāmasundara: Everyone can walk by the church now. It's a memorial. They can walk by the church and say, "Oh, just see = God is dead. Now I can sin."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: They left a memorial there of the broken church so that they will always remember that "God is dead, and we can go ahead and sin now. The church is broken."

Prabhupāda: Oh, they say like that?

Śyāmasundara: Well they..., I think psychologically at least. [laughter] The church is all broken, bombed out.

Prabhupāda: Then they, they do not know that... There it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā,

"I am spread everywhere, and everything is resting on Me, but I am not there." [laughs] The church was resting on Kṛṣṇa, but when it is broken, He is not there. That he will be..., is foolish person, they do not know. He is not there. This is simultaneously = Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere and He is not there. That means unto the devotee He is there, and to the nondevotee He is not there. That is Kṛṣṇa's special power. When the nondevotees wants to break Kṛṣṇa's statue or Kṛṣṇa's temple, He is not there. So what he will do? That is a wrong conclusion, "Now Kṛṣṇa is dead." No. When they were breaking the church or breaking the Deity of Kṛṣṇa, He was not there. Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ.

Śyāmasundara: He wasn't there in the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: He wasn't there to begin with.

Prabhupāda: No. That is Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable power.

Śyāmasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: He can remain everywhere, simultaneously, and He can not remain there. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu and Prahlāda. Hiraṇyakaśipu is thinking, "Where is your God? Where is your God?" Asking, challenging. And Prahlāda Mahārāja saying, "Yes. Here is my God." "Is it in the pillar?" "Yes." So the Hiraṇyakaśipu is saying that "What, what is this pillar, that there is God? What is this nonsense speaking?" But he is seeing there is God. [laughter]

This is God's in..., inconceivable power. So therefore he broke it, pillar, in anger. So..., so He was there for Prahlāda, but He was not there for Hiraṇyakaśipu. This is inconceivable. Simultaneously He is there and He is not there. When the demon is trying to break, He is not there, and when the devotee wants to worship, He is there. Simultaneously. So one has to learn this Kṛṣṇa science, then it will be all right. Otherwise, anyone can say anything. That is all. [laughter]

Jaya-hari: Instead of a church there is now a temple.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Jaya-hari: Instead of a church there is now a temple.

Prabhupāda: Temple?

Jaya-hari: Instead of a church being there, there is now a temple there.

Prabhupāda: In that church broken?

Jaya-hari: In Berlin.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Jaya-hari: On that same street.

Śyāmasundara: Not in that church. Down the street.

Jaya-hari: Down the street.

George: I think we must leave now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [laughs] Thank you very much for your coming.

Revatīnandana: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come. It is your temple. [Hindi]

George: It wasn't my money that I bought it with. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Yes. It is Kṛṣṇa's money, [laughter] but you are the cashier. [laughter] [end]