Morning Walk at Cheviot Hills Golf Course , Los Angeles , 1973-05-13

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: [introducing recording] Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Testing. Testing 1,2,3, testing 1,2,3, testing 1,2,3. Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Srila Prabhupāda's morning walk, recorded May 13th, 1973, at Cheviot Hills Golf Course, in Los Angeles. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...to stop him for taking another Nobel Prize. Where is? [laughter] I am giving him notes that life is not from matter; matter is from life. So he is going to write thesis on this.

Paramahaṁsa: Jaya. Vedānta-sūtra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the fact. The so-called scientists, they are going on a wrong theory. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8] = "I am the origin of everything." So Kṛṣṇa is life. Kṛṣṇa is not dead stone. Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the source of everything." He is life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is not a dead stone. Then how matter can be cause of life?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Matter is caused by life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter grows upon life. Just like my this body has grown upon me. I am the spirit soul. But this is māyā. Just like, this is... I have explained in Bhagavad-gītā. I am putting on this overcoat. The overcoat is made according to the size of my body, but I am thinking, "I am overcoat." This is foolishness. Just like I have got my hand, therefore this overcoat is made of warm cloth, it has got a hand also. Because originally I have got hand, therefore the overcoat has got a hand. Similarly, originally I am spirit soul, I have got my spiritual body, and the material body has grown, cut according to the body.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about in mineralogy? Scientists have proven that, for example, mountains are growing by sedimentary activity.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also growing on spirit soul, Supersoul.

Paramahaṁsa: In the mountain?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Mountains have been described in the Bhāgavata as the bones of God. These grasses are described as hairs on the body of God. These holes... There are holes, we saw that. They have been described as oceans. So in this way, this virāṭa, the biggest body. As the smallest body is producing chemical, similarly the biggest body also, producing chemical. A small tree, lemon tree, how many pounds of citric acid it is produced?

Paramahaṁsa: I do not know.

Prabhupāda: No, producing, you know.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if the tree can produce so much chemicals, how much the body of God can produce chemicals we can imagine only. They are giving the theory that "From these chemical, life begins, or evolution begins." But wherefrom that chemical developed? That they do not know. That explanation is here, Kṛṣṇa = "I am the source."

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, or the Kṛṣṇa book, you state that even clouds have souls. The clouds? But then again they dissipate, and they..., in the rain they dissolve. Does that mean they die?

Prabhupāda: No. Just like your body dissolves. Does it mean you die?

Paramahaṁsa: So that means the life span of a cloud is very minute or very short. Is that so?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many living entities.

Paramahaṁsa: Jaya.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my understanding of the evolution and the transmigration is that evolution is unidirectional, only in one direction.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whereas the transmigration can be both, in both directions. They can go up or can go down.

Prabhupāda: No. Both ways. When you say "trans," "trans" does not mean stereotyped. For lower animals, that is one side, and for human being, both sides. Because after all, the body is made according to your desire. The lower animals, they have got one kind of desire, but the human being, he has got thousands and millions of desires.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the platform of transmigration from the human platform, so it works..., either it can go down or it can go up.

Prabhupāda: No, transmigration going on. They are coming automatically, animal, to the upper level of human form. But when you come to human form, if you don't cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness---you remain as cats and dog---then you become again cat and dog.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But evolution stops when the spirit soul reaches the eternal abode in the spiritual...

Prabhupāda: Yes, when he is no more entangled by a material body. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists have no information that there is evolution after human platform.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] That is their rascaldom. Therefore I say they are rascals. They have no knowledge; still, they proclaim they are scientist.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that evolution is continuing. They think that the human species will evolve...

Prabhupāda: Yes, evolution... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā = yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. Progress is going on. That progress, the ultimate progress, is yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. That where you're going, you do not return, that is the supreme progress. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ.

That is the highest perfection. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Mām upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ [Bg. 8.15]. They have no idea what is the highest perfection of human life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements.

Prabhupāda: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And when the spirit soul..., when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the...

Prabhupāda: Do the rascals believe in the living entity?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they don't say living entity. Bodies.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Paramahaṁsa: Something akin to Buddhism. The Buddhists also say that the body is like a house.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: You put the house together, you put the body together with chemicals. And when the bodies die, it's just like you take the house apart, all the wood, and then there is no more house..., no more soul, no more life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called nirvāṇa. And with the chemicals you can build another house. Buddhists, they do not give any information of the soul. That is Buddhism.

[about the ground:] What...? Oh, wet?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, it's dry.

Paramahaṁsa: There's another very interesting factor that scientists, they state that matter is..., or that there is,... they dispute the fact that there's one soul within the body. There's a special kind of worm, it's an earthworm, that if you cut it in half...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: There's a special kind of worm within the ground, that if you cut it in half, both parts will live.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So they wonder how is it possible that if there is soul, that there could be two souls within one body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Souls takes the opportunity.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, it takes the opportunity of the other body, the fertile...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.

Prabhupāda: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise, how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. "Unnatural" means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Kṛṣṇa. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.

According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up; again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body."

This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car given by nature. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Māyā has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on rotating.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mahāprabhu?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate = sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.

Paramahaṁsa: But ultimately, if we come to Kṛṣṇa, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagāi and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Prabhupāda: There is return. That is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahaṁsa: If we want.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So? They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise, what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this."

Just like some of our student, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house. Not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that.

The police is there, just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14] = "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore."

Paramahaṁsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Kṛṣṇa brings us to our natural position.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: But then again there's this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires, even though we want to serve Kṛṣṇa? This continues?

Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, like many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them, [indistinct] them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of māyā.

Paramahaṁsa: Even though the desire exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that "If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail." And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?

Paramahaṁsa: Why?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Ignorance?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda gives the example of the elephant.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Takes shower again and...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hasti-snāna. Therefore knowledge-giving, that is the beginning of spiritual life. Kṛṣṇa gives Arjuna---knowledge-giving---that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. What is that knowledge, all over the world? Where is that university? This preliminary knowledge which Kṛṣṇa begins, Bhagavad-gītā, where is that university? Svarūpa Dāmodara, where is that chemical laboratory or university?

Devotee: You. You.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is none in the universities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the position of your education. There is no knowledge, and you are simply advertising, "Advancement of knowledge, university, Ph.D.s, Nobel Prize holder." But they are all rascals. Fools' paradise. It is called fools' paradise.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If the scientists know that there is..., we are not this body, then definitely the whole outlook will be changed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want to do.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to admit their failure.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If you are a fool and if you want to pose yourself as intelligent, that is another foolishness. You cannot make progress. Stubborn dogs. If you are after..., seeking after knowledge, you must take the right knowledge. That is intelligence. And if you want to remain in ignorance and advertise yourself that "I am man of knowledge," how much cheater you are! You are cheating yourself and cheating others. That is going on. We want to stop this.

Paramahaṁsa: Just like many of our devotees, we experienced when we tried to preach to our parents, because they are much older, to admit that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right path in life means to also admit that they have wasted their entire life, which is..., it takes...

Prabhupāda: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the schoolchildren, not from the man who is going to die. [laughing] That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān [SB 7.6.1] = "Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for B.A. examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lesson. They forget.

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Because of sense gratification or mind...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Blunt. Intelligence has becomes blunt.

Prabhupāda: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut.

Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā. Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."

Paramahaṁsa: After the Twentieth... During the Industrial Revolution in the Western world, many people...

Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means evolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras, because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development, means technologist, they are śūdras.

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: But they have taken the position of brāhmaṇas in the society. Acting like brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brāhmaṇa? Brāhmaṇa's position is to teach brāhmaṇa knowledge, brahma-jñāna. That is brāhmaṇa.

Paramahaṁsa: Prior to the growth of technology...

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife, you take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries... Cutleries? In larger scale. So they are śūdras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of śūdras. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age, all are śūdras." Only we are trying to become brāhmaṇa. Otherwise all śūdras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arm, no mouth, so what is this body?

Paramahaṁsa: Corpse.

Prabhupāda: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost. Therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog = "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? Where is your immigration?" This is dog's business.

This is dog's business. [laughter] And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, "Whether you have got revolver." Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: The question I have, Prabhupāda, is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means śūdra. That I have already said.

Paramahaṁsa: But now they listen more to scientists.

Prabhupāda: That means śūdras. Śūdra's interested to hear from śūdra.

Paramahaṁsa: For example, in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: "Scientists, they have proven the truth that the world is round. Therefore scientists..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be. Therefore the scriptures must be transcendental. Nonsense teach scripture, and people become nonsense. So except Vedic literature, all nonsense scripture. They are not scripture. Manufactured. This Bible was manufactured by this saint, this saint, that, according to their imagination. It was not spoken by Lord Jesus Christ. What was spoken by Jesus Christ, that they ignore = "Thou shall not kill." They kill. Nobody is following Christian principle; neither Bible is perfect. But that, if we say, we will be shot. [laughter]

Paramahaṁsa: That is what they do now in the Vietnam. For God they are killing.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheist.

Paramahaṁsa: But preach first.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't preach.

Prabhupāda: That is..., killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.

Paramahaṁsa: A new method of warfare.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a little wet Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?

Prabhupāda: Well, the questions are... Answers are there in my books.

Paramahaṁsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramātmā?

Prabhupāda: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity. What is this?

[looking at barbecue area?] Sacrificial arena? [laughter]

Paramahaṁsa: For children, I think. No? For cooking, yeah.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: [about tennis players] How people are kept into ignorance. Life is so valuable, and they are wasting time in that way. Life is valuable. How life should be utilized, what is the object of life---they do not know anything.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without knowing that the soul is eternal, everybody would be acting like this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Bodily concept of life means animal life. The animal does not know. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and kharaḥ means ass. One who is in the..., under bodily concept of life, he is no better than animals. So when the animal talks of knowledge, an intelligent man laughs. That is our position. The animals, they are talking of knowledge.

Paramahaṁsa: At least the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unless necessary. They only eat when necessary. Whereas man, he kills unnecessarily, eats unnecessarily. So forgetting God, we are even lower than animals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we suffer also more than the animals.

[pause]

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a bogus, religious sentimental movement. It is a scientific movement. So now it is up to you to prove this. Then you will be actually Kṛṣṇa conscious.

[pause] [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they were saying that everything in the universe is just happening by chance.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just by chance.

Prabhupāda: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?

Karandhara: The book is also by chance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his... Chance and necessity about life, he is saying everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...

Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the molecules came?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to him, it is simply by chance.

Prabhupāda: Chance. Then... So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then necessity arises, so these molecules re-orient, change as a fashion, because of necessity.

Prabhupāda: Why necessity? If everything is by chance, where is the necessity? What is the meaning? Let the chance take place. Why necessity?

Paramahaṁsa: He is hoping for another Nobel Prize by his chance.

Prabhupāda: All fools' paradise. That's all. Why do they send their children to school? Why not let them grow by chance? Is there any excuse if I say, "By chance I have violated this rule"? Is that the cause of excuse?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the cause of my ignorance.

Prabhupāda: That is chance. That is chance. Because I am ignorant, therefore there is chance.

Paramahaṁsa: It would be just as stupid as saying that a car is made by chance.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: It would just be as stupid as saying a beautiful instrument like a car was made by chance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the most regrettable condition, that these rascals are getting recognition. Talking all foolish, and they are getting recognition.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's so strange. When I read that book... He defines the difference between the living and the non-living by a term called teleonomy, t-e-l-e-o-n-o-m-y. I tried to find out in the dictionary and I couldn't find any word like that. But I understood that what he meant was...

Prabhupāda: [speaks a garbled, made-up word] [laughter]

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: He invents his own word jugglery.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was trying to present the difference between organic beings and the non-organic beings. So he goes in such a roundabout fashion just to differentiate.

Prabhupāda: Petitio principii. This logic is called petitio principii. He has to prove something, but he is taking his premises from that something. [end]