Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.2.6 , Hyderabad , 1972-11-26

Pradyumna: [leads chanting of verse, etc.] [Prabhupāda and devotees repeat]

[break]

Prabhupāda:

Everyone is hankering after peace of mind. Ātmā suprasa. Ātma, ātma means this body, ātma means the mind and ātma means the soul. We are in three status of life. Actually, we are the spirit soul covered by two kinds of dresses. Just like you gentlemen, you are also covered by two kinds of dresses---underwear and coat, shirt and coat. Similarly... Actually, "I am" means I am not this shirt and coat; I am within the shirt and coat. Similarly, I, the soul, I am covered by two kinds of layers---mind, intelligence and false ego. False ego means I am considering I am this American dress, I am this Indian dress, because I am identifying with this body. If I ask somebody, "What you are, sir?" "I am American." "What you are, sir?" "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya."

But these are the designations. This is not my real identification. The Vedic information is when I understand I am ahaṁ brahmāsmi, I am Brahman, or the spirit soul. That is my beginning of identification. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the spirit. This human form of life is meant for advancing knowledge of brahma, brahma-jñāna. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. One who is advanced in knowledge of Brahman, he is called brāhmaṇa.

So if we actually want peace... Everyone is hankering; that is..., that is our prerogative. Every living entity must hanker after happiness. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12]. Because by nature we are happy. By nature we are happy. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. So as spirit soul we are naturally happy, blissful. But because we have been covered by the eight material elements---earth, water, fire, air, ether, these are gross elements---and within the gross elements, mind, intelligence and ego. So somebody is satisfied with the comfort of the outward gross elements, this body. They are called materialist. Simply sense gratification. Indriyāni parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ [Bg. 3.42].

First of all our conception is happiness means happiness of my body. The whole world is going on. Material world means everyone is working hard only for the happiness of the body. And some of them, they are trying to be happy by the happiness of the mind. Just like arts, poetry, philosophy, speculating on. But both of these kinds of happiness will not give us real happiness, because real happiness belongs to the soul. Basic principle of happiness missing.

Therefore simply by bodily comfort, sense gratification, we cannot be happy. And actually it is so happening. People are endeavoring throughout the whole world for bodily comforts, for sense gratification, but they're not happy. There cannot be happiness. Because... The same example. Suppose you have got a nice coat. If you simply soap the coat and iron the coat and keep it very nice, that does not mean you'll be happy, because you are trying to get happiness from the coat or shirt. That is not happiness. That is not possible.

Happiness is possible when you try to make happy the soul. Then happiness is possible. Another example is given---just like a bird within the cage. If you simply wash the cage and keep it very nice and don't give any food to the bird, then the bird will never be happy simply by polishing the cage. But this is the cage. This material body is a cage of the soul. Therefore material living being is called conditioned, or encaged. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā.

This is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. One must understand that the soul is encaged within this body and mind.

So if you try to become, by bodily comforts or mental satisfaction, it will never be possible. Happiness will never be possible. Therefore Bhāgavata says, yayātmā suprasīdati. Ātma means soul. Suprasīdati. Prasīdati means becomes happy. And su means very---very much happy. How? Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6].

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the mature instruction of Vyāsadeva on Vedic wisdom. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ idam [SB 1.1.3]. Nigama means Vedas. It is like kalpa-taru, desire tree. Whichever thing you desire, you can get from Vedic knowledge. Nigama-kalpa-taru. Kalpa-taru means desire tree. We have got experience of this tree---mango tree, orange tree, or so many trees. So you can get a particular type of fruit from a particular type of tree. But in the spiritual world all the trees are desire trees. Whatever you want, you can get. If you want mango from orange tree, then you'll get.

We get this information from Vedas. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu [Bs. 5.29]. Kalpa-vṛkṣa means the desire tree. Not only one, two---lakṣāvṛteṣu, there are thousands and thousands of desire trees. That is the spiritual world. We have no information of the material world even. We are trying to go to the moon planet, we have not full information. And the moon planet is one of the nearest planet. But there are innumerable, millions and millions of planets within one universe. And there are millions and millions of universes.

We get this information from Vedic literature. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. Jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi means millions of universes. Koṭiṣv vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam. And each universe is full of millions and millions of planets. And each planet is of different type, different climate, different living entities. These are the information. You cannot expect the same planet or same atmosphere everywhere.

Just like even on this planet, I am coming from Europe, America, the climate is different. India's climate is different. Even on this planet. So each and every planet, they of different nature. And all the living entities are there. In the Bhagavad-gītā we get information, sarva-ga. Sthāṇur acalo 'yam [Bg. 2.24], sarva-ga. It is not fact that only on this planet there are living entities, and other planets there are no living entities. No, that is not a fact.

Anyway, here the proposal is how to achieve perfect happiness of ātma. Ātma, I have already explained, ātma means the body, ātma means the mind and ātma means the soul. So unless you get happiness of the soul, simply trying to get happiness of the body and the mind, you'll never get happiness. That is the information in this verse. Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6].

Dharma means religion, English translation. But according to the Vedic understanding, dharma means the characteristic. Everything has got a characteristic. In the chemical laboratory, when something is tested, the characteristic is tested = "This is this chemical, it has got so many characteristics." So our characteristic, we living entities, we have got our characteristic.

What is that characteristic, general characteristics? In this meeting we may be sitting so many people; one may be Hindu, one may be... Because I am talking of Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Here the word is used, dharma. Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6]. So dharma, we generally understand that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Ārya-samājī," "I am this, "I am that." That is generally taken as dharma.

But according to Vedic principle dharma means characteristic. Just like chili---to become hot, the characteristic of chili. We test in the market when we go to purchase chili, we test how strong it is hot. If it is not very strong in its hottiness, then we reject = "No, no, it is not good chili." Chili must be very hot. That is characteristic; that is dharma. Sugar must be very sweet. That is characteristic; that is dharma.

So sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo. So at the present moment, being entrapped by the material nature, we have accepted different types of dharma. That is artificial. That is artificial. "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist," "I am this," "I am that"---these are all in relationship with this body. Accidentally if I am born in a Hindu family or Muslim family or Christian family, I identify myself, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." But real identification is, as I have already explained to you, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: I am Brahman. I am the spirit soul.

So when we come to that platform of spiritual understanding then our characteristic should be manifested. What is that? That is explained here, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Bhakti---to become devotee of the Supreme Lord. That is our real character. To become devotee is already manifest. I am devotee to my country, I am devotee to my society, I am devotee to my family, I am devotee to my husband, to my wife, to my children. So devotion is already there. But that is not paro dharmo. When we become devotee of the Supreme Lord, that is our real characteristic.

Devotion is already there; service is already there. Nobody can say that "I do not serve anyone." No, that is not possible. You must serve, because that is your characteristic, that is your dharma. Everyone is serving. If a person has nobody to serve, he keeps a cat, he keeps a dog and serves him. So to give service, to love somebody else, that is my real characteristic. But I am missing the point. I am loving cats and dogs and so many things, but I am missing to love God. That is the missing point. Love is there, object of love is there, but it is misplaced. Therefore, we are not getting happiness. When it will be properly placed, love and the object of love, then we'll be happy. This is explanation of this verse.

Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo. Para. Para means superior. And apara means inferior. There are two kinds of nature---para and apara. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo.... Bhūmir āpo 'nalo...

Devotee: Vāyu.

Prabhupāda: Vāyu, vāyu. Khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca. Bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā. Bhinnā me prakṛti [Bg. 7.4]. This bhinnā means separated. This material nature---earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence and ego---Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "They are My nature, but separated." So apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā [Bg. 7.5]. They are inferior nature, this material nature, inferior; but there is another, superior nature. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā. Para means superior. What is that? Jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]---the living entity.

Just like the whole material world is important because the living entity is utilizing it for his purpose. This New Delhi city is important because the living entity is utilizing it for purpose. Otherwise it was a jungle. Anything you take material, material thing has no value, it is inferior, but by the touch of the superior energy, living entity, it becomes important. Therefore there are two nature---inferior nature and superior nature.

Similarly, there are two kinds of dharmas. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, this, that or white, black, so many ways, according to the designation of the body you have created dharma, or characteristics. That is inferior quality. But when you come to the superior quality of characteristic, of dharma, then you become happy. Anywhere there are two qualities always---inferior and superior. When you are attached to the inferior quality you don't get very much satisfaction, but when you come to the superior quality, then you get satisfaction, happiness.

So here it is said, dharma, religion, or the characteristic of human being, there are so many, but sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo, that is superior quality of religion or characteristic. What is that? Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: "Following which you become a devotee of the Adhokṣaja." Adhokṣaja means the Supreme Lord, God. God has got many names. Actually, God has no name, but according to different calculation or different situation, He has got a name.

Just like "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa is the characteristic of the Supreme Lord. "Kṛṣṇa" means all-attractive. If God is not all-attractive... Not everyone is all-attractive, but God is all-attractive. Therefore He is called Kṛṣṇa. God appeared as the son of Vasudeva or Nanda Mahārāja; therefore He is called Yaśodānanda, Nandananda, Vasudevanandana---His relationship. Kṛṣṇa enjoys the company of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī; therefore He is called Rādhā-ramaṇa, Rādhā-Govinda. So God's name is there according to His pastimes, relationships. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme name because it means all-attractive.

Similarly, here it is name, God's name, Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja. Adha. Adha means defeated. Adha-kṛta, subdued. What is that subdued? Akṣaja-jñānam. Akṣa. Akṣa means eyes, direct perception. We want... We say sometimes, "Can you show me God?" Akṣa. Or akṣaja means ah, the alphabet, and kṣa, beginning from ah up to kṣa. So all the letters are there. So we make words by combination of these letters. So akṣaja, so within our power, we make so many words by combining these alphabets, but God is beyond that. Akṣaja-jñānam. Either you are beyond the direct perception or beyond your word-making capacity. Therefore God's another name is Adhokṣaja. Adhaḥ-kṛta akṣaja jñānam jata.

So Adhokṣaja means beyond direct sense perception. That is also nice name of God. God is not understood by speculating our senses.

We cannot understand God by mental speculation. That is not possible. Realization God means when God reveals unto you. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. By our these blunt senses, speculating, we cannot understand what is God. Therefore His name is Adhokṣaja, Adhokṣaja, "beyond material speculation." And still you have to apply your bhakti, devotion. Just try to understand. He is beyond our sense perception, but still we have to search Him out and employ our feelings of devotion, love.

Therefore, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. One side is beyond the perception of senses, and another side you have to love Him. If I say, "Love the air" as an example, so that love is not very factual. How can I love air, something in the air? Somebody must be person; then love is possible. Somebody must be tangible; then there is love possible. Here it is called bhakti. Bhakti means application of love. Bhaja sevayā. When you love, you serve somebody. That is called bhakti.

Therefore, what kind of love? That is also described here = ahaitukī---"without any motive." Here in this material world, I love you, you love me, with a motive of sense gratification. Actually there is no love in the world, material world. The show of love is there with a motive. Here love of Godhead means ahaitukī---without any motive. Ahaituky apratihatā. Apratihata means without being deterred, without being impeded. If you develop your love of Godhead...

You must know first of all what is that God, Adhokṣaja, because beyond your mental perception. But fortunately, if you understand what is God, and when you begin to love Him without any motive... Generally we go to temple, to church or to mosque, anywhere, the place of worship, "O God give us our daily bread." There is a motive. Similarly, others also, they go to the temple, "O God, I am in need of money, I am distressed. Kindly mitigate my distress, give me some money." There is motive. But here it is said ahaitukī, without any motive. If you can love God, who is beyond your sense perception, and without any motive, that activities of love will never be stopped. Ahaituky apratihatā---without being impeded, without being impeded by any material condition.

That means that if you actually love God, there is no condition. Because you are poor man you cannot love God, that is not the fact. Or because you are rich man you cannot love God, no, that is also not fact. Because you are not educated you cannot love God, that is also not acceptable. Because you are very much educated, highly philosophical... So many conditions you can bring, but all these conditions are not applicable in the business, in the transaction, of loving God without motive.

So this is the description of love of Godhead, and if we practically try to cultivate this knowledge of Godhead, that is called..., that process is called bhakti. That process is called bhakti. It is enunciated in the Vedic language that,

Upādhi. Now we are covered by designation. The same example---vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. We are dressed in two kinds of subtle and gross dresses, this material body and mind, intelligence, ego. So when we become free from these designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam, and we become purified, nirmala... Mal means dirt, and nirmala means without any dirt, without any dirty things, simply spiritual.

Hṛṣīka means senses, upādhi. Just like my hand is now covered by this shirt. So when there is no more shirt, that is naked.

So when you come without any designation, without any understanding, false understanding, that "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," in that stage the senses, the senses remain. Suppose if I take my dress out of my body, my real senses are there. So similarly, when we become free from the designation of this material body and we come to the pure stage of original, spiritual senses, that senses, when applied to the service of the supreme master of senses, God, that is called bhakti. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje.

So if we actually want peace or happiness, yayātmā suprasīdati, without any designation, then that peace and happiness can be achieved. Otherwise it is not possible. So long we remain designated, it is not possible to come to that stage of pure, unalloyed devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Any question? [break]

Devotee: Are there any questions?

Prabhupāda: Is there any question? You can ask.

Indian man: [asks question about ātma---indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Ātma, as I have already explained, ātma means this body. That rūpa, you can see. My body you can see; I can see your body. This is one of the rūpa of..., gross. Gross rūpa, form. Another = I know you have got mind and you know I have got mind, but you cannot see; you can simply perceive. Is it not? And another rūpa, the soul, that is so fine that it is not possible at the present time. It is described in the śāstra one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. But it has got a rūpa. Not that there is no rūpa. There is rūpa.

There is magnitude. Just like we say, geometrically, point has no length, no breadth. But actually that is not fact. It has got length and breadth, but we cannot measure it. Similarly, ātma, the soul, has got length and breadth, but it is beyond our perception.

Therefore we have to accept śruti. This is called Vedas, Vedic injunction. Vedas said, "Here is the magnitude." That is Vedic understanding. Those who are followers of Vedas, they will not argue. Whatever is stated in the Vedas, they will accept. That is Vaidic. There are many examples; I can give one example:

Just like in the Vedas it is stated that the stool of animal is impure, and if one touches stool, he must take bathing. But in the Vedas it is also stated that the cow dung, which is also the stool of an animal, that is pure. And still, at least those who are Vedic followers, they take cow dung as pure. Anywhere impure, they smear with cow dung. And that is fact also. Cow dung is full of antiseptic properties. It has been analyzed.

So the Vedas gives us injunction both ways---that stool is impure but this stool is pure. And those who are followers of Vedas, they accept both. When they touch the stool of another animal they take bathing, but the stool of cow is taken to the Deity worship room. Similarly, śaṅkha, conchshell. Conchshell is the bone of an animal. It is said that if you touch the bone of a dead animal you have to..., you become impure. But conchshell is also the bone of an animal; it is taken to the Deity room for vibrating.

Therefore there are so many things which is beyond our perception, knowledge; we have to take shelter of the Vedic injunction. That is called Vedic. Therefore our method, Vedic method, is as soon as we speak something, we immediately give evidence from the Vedas. Then it is perfect. There is no question of arguing. Just like in the law court the lawyer pleading something, but if he gives quotation from previous judgment and section of law, it is accepted.

So the forms of the ātma, there are three kinds of forms---one you can see directly, this bodily form; another you can simply perceive; and another you can accept only on the Vedic injunction. But there are forms.

So is that right? Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: [indistinct about spiritual master and disciple]

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything you have to take a master. If you become a tailor you have to go to a tailor master. But if you want to know the spiritual science or the Supreme Absolute Spirit, do you not require to go to a person who knows the subject matter? It is natural.

This is the Vedic injunction.

Śabde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. In the Bhagavad-gītā,

So if you actually serious to know about spiritual subject matter, then you must have to, abhigacchet. Abhigacchet, this word is used when the sense is "must." Not that without, I can go, I can have spiritual knowledge without having accepted a spiritual master. That is not possible. You must go to a spiritual master and he must be bona fide, he must be in full knowledge, then your life is successful. [pause]

Any other question?

Indian man (2): Swāmījī, we have heard a lot that we get the [indistinct] of our karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): How are you to know that this act or that act is good or bad?

Prabhupāda: You do not know what is good or bad?

Indian man (2): We do not know because maybe somebody died or somebody [indistinct] in our family. We say it was because of our past karmas. We do not know what were our past karmas.

Prabhupāda: Well, everyone dies. Death is inevitable. Nobody can avoid death. "As sure as death." And therefore, I have already explained that we have to take information from the Vedas. Just like this body. It is said in the Vedas, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Karmaṇā. Why we have got different bodies, different mentality? Every one of us sitting here, we are not of the same mentality, not of the same body. So, why the different bodies are there if there is not a superior endowment? Why different bodies? Can you answer this?

Unless there is some superior endowment that "You accept this body, you take this body," you have to accept. You cannot deny it. Because in the Vedas we understand, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You have to, after death, you have accept another body. But what kind of body you are going to accept, that you do not know. But there is superior judgment that "You have done such-and-such karma; you accept this body." How can you deny it?

Just like in the court the judge is giving different judgment = "Yes, you have to receive this one lakh of rupees from this person. I give you decree." And another person is given order, "You go to jail for six months." The judge is the same. But why one is going by his word six months imprisonment and another is getting one lakh of rupees decree? The superior judgment is there and the karma is there.

Therefore because we are getting so many different types of bodies---each body is different from the another body---unless there is superior judgment that one has to accept this body, another has to accept that body. And that judgment is given by karma, and that is stated in the Vedas, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. By one's karma and by superior judgment, one has to get another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13].

So where is the wrong in this? There is superior judgment, and there are different types of body, that is a fact. So how you cannot deny. Sometimes Christians, they deny this karmavāda. I was a student in Calcutta, Scottish Churches College. So I was student of philosophy also. So Dr. Urquhart, he denied karmavāda, that "I am punished at this present, present body. So where is the witness? Where is the witness?"

Because any judgment is done on the strength of witness. So that was his argument. But the witness is there. According to Vedic system, the witness is the sun, the witness is the moon, the witness is the day, the witness is the night. And above all, the supreme witness is God Himself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, so how you can hide yourself from the vigilance of the Supreme Lord? The Supreme Lord is witness.

So according to your karma... And that is also explained in another place in Bhagavad-gītā. Why people are getting superior and inferior types of body? That is explained = kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. Sad-asad---good and bad, first class and third class. Sad-asad-janma-yonisu. Species of life they are getting. The reason is, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya: because he's associating with different modes of nature.

There are three modes of nature---goodness, passion and ignorance. So if you associate with goodness, you get one type of body. If you associate with passion, you get another type of body. If you associate with ignorance, you get another type of body. This is law of nature, and the witness is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So there is exactly everything in order. You cannot escape that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is not possible to escape. This is karmavāda. But this karmavāda, just like one man is sentenced by the law to be hanged, nobody can save him, but still there is King's mercy; he can save you.

Indian man (2): [indistinct] at least in the court of law he know what he does, what he is [indistinct], what kind of crime he has committed.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): But in the court of the Lord he does not know. He wants to know what kind of crime he has committed in the past that he can purify himself...

Prabhupāda: Well, that... Just like a child, when he's crawling, he touches a fire and he's burned. He forgets. But when he's grown-up, if he inquires from the parents, "Why this scar is in my hand?" the father reminds, "My dear child, you did like this." So because you have forgotten, that does not mean it did not take place. You have forgotten. You do not know what you were doing at this time yesterday. You are so forgetful.

So your remembering or forgetful doesn't matter. The law of nature must work severely. It doesn't matter whether you forget or you do not know the law. Forgetfulness of law is no excuse. You must suffer. Just like the child, when he touches the fire, the fire does not consider, "Oh, here is an innocent child, why shall I burn him?" He must be burned. That is law of karma. When you touch fire you must act and you must suffer. Without any judgment the law is already there.

Indian man (3): Swāmī, have you seen God? [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Do you know how to see?

Indian man (3): Yes. I can see you. But because He reveals Himself...

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] Yes, that I have already explained, that Adhokṣaja, God, cannot be seen by your these blunt senses, but when you develop pure senses, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When our senses are nirmalam, without any designation, you can see God.

Indian man (3): So my question was, "Swāmījī, have you seen God?"

Prabhupāda: Now if I say yes, will you believe? [laughter from audience] Will you believe? So therefore you have to make purify your senses to see God, instead of asking anybody whether he has seen or not. I say anybody who has purified his senses, he can see God. Better asking me, you better see God. That is real. What you'll gain? Suppose if I say "Yes" or "No," what you'll gain?

Indian man (4): Swāmījī, is there life after death?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I've already explained, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], the karmaṇā and everything. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. You do not read Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (4): Very regularly.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (4): Very regularly.

Prabhupāda: So read. The knowledge is there. If you don't read, remain like animals, then what can be done? The animal cannot read.

Indian man (5): Prabhupāda, how much freedom do we have [indistinct] the Supreme Personality of Godhead? We have this conditioned mind and conditioned body, and I think that we should use our intelligence, and that's why...

Prabhupāda: You have got freedom. Just like in this Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7] = every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God has got independence, complete independence; therefore you have got also independence, because you are part and parcel of God. Just like the ocean and a drop of water of the ocean.

The chemical composition is the same, but the ocean is very big and the drop of water is very small. Similarly, you are just like a drop, part and parcel of God. So all the qualities of God you have got in minute quantity. Therefore you have got independence in minute quantity. Your independence is not final or absolute.

Indian man (5): We don't realize it. We have the mind...

Prabhupāda: That means you are ignorant.

Indian man (5): No, no...

Prabhupāda: So you be educated and you'll realize it. Unless you become educated, how you can realize it?

Indian man (5): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: That does not mean. Suppose a chemical law. If you say, "I do not realize it," does that mean..., is it very good question? You are a fool, rascal, you cannot realize it. But you be educated, you realize. Therefore these books are there to make the fools educated, to realize it. How in the foolish state of condition you can realize?

This is a very odd question. You realize it. When you come to that stage of realization, you'll realize. You've got the potency of realization. Therefore the books are there, the Vedic knowledge is there. But you don't care to read them. What can be done? If you want to remain foolish, ignorant, then who can [indistinct]?

There... In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is a very simple passage = anādi-bahirmukha jīva. It is in Bengali; you may not understand. I will explain.

Because the living entity, he has forgotten God, Kṛṣṇa. Anādi: he does not know when that forgetfulness has begun, but he has forgotten. Therefore to remind him, the Vedas and Purāṇas are there. So we have to study. Any knowledge, we have to go through the books, through the knowledge, to the teacher. Then what is not realized now, it will be realized in due course of time.

Indian man (6): Thing is, Swāmījī, what is knowledge [indistinct] what you read in the books, or is that part of what we should read, and then how we can realize? Even sometimes we read books but we don't realize what is..., has been...

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Vedic injunction = tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just like if you want to be a medical man, you cannot purchase a book from the bookshop and you become a medical man. You must go to a medical man to learn it, who is actually a medical man. You go to the medical college, then study.

Indian man (6): Guru is the important, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere guru is important. Without guru, how you can learn? If you want to become an expert thief, you have to accept one guru, thief. [laughter] And what to speak of spiritual knowledge?

Indian man (6): Swāmījī, so much importance has been given to japa and the repetition of mantra...

Prabhupāda: All right, first of all you go to guru, then you will learn what is japa, what is tapa. [laughter]

Indian man (7): Is history planned?

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Indian man (7): Is history planned?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (7): Is history planned?

Prabhupāda: History?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it preplanned? [brief discussion as to what the guest is asking]

Indian man (7): Preplanned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Preplanning...

Prabhupāda: Preplanning?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By God.

Yaśodānandana: He is asking if it is predestined. Is it arranged from before? History.

Prabhupāda: History?

Yaśodānandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, history...

Devotee: Destiny. Pre-destiny.

Prabhupāda: Yes, something there is pre-destined, and something happens also.

Man (8): Can I ask one question? So according to Bhagavad-gītā, Lord Kṛṣṇa five thousand years ago revealed Himself to Arjuna on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, and that man asked you whether you have seen God or not. Of course, you cannot see God yourself; God should reveal Himself. But I would like to know whether Lord Kṛṣṇa can reveal Himself at another time perhaps, in [indistinct] or the present day, as it was five thousand years ago. Is it possible? You mention somewhere in your Bhagavad-gītā or other books.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know if Kṛṣṇa can come again? Does it depend...

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa can come again. Not by your order. He comes in His due time, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. Just like the sun rises every day.

[aside:] Where is my glasses?

Devotee: Glasses?

Prabhupāda: In the nighttime you cannot ask the sun, "Please get up." He is not your servant. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa... [break] [end]