Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.13 , Tokyo , 1972-05-03
Pradyumna: [leads chanting of verse, etc.] [Prabhupāda and devotees respond]
savidyud abhrāvalibhir yathā nabhaḥ
Prabhupāda: Next. [devotees take turns chanting verse, with Prabhupāda correcting pronunciation]
[break] "...bhir, by the glowing."
Pradyumna: yaḥ---the Vaikuṇṭhalokas. [break]
"The Vaikuṇṭha planets are also surrounded by various airplanes, all glowing and brilliantly situated, belonging to the great mahātmās, or devotees of the Lord. The ladies also are as beautiful as lightning because of their celestial complexions. And all these combined together appear just like the sky decorated with both clouds and lightning."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So there is no scarcity of aeroplanes in Vaikuṇṭhaloka. It is not nirviśeṣa, zero. The rascals, they do not know [break] what is actually Vaikuṇṭha is, or the kingdom of God. And they dismiss everything by declaring, "Zero, without any varieties." Nirviśeṣa śūnyavādi. They have no information; therefore "zero." But actually that is not. Exactly like this sky, the Vaikuṇṭha sky is there. Like the planets here, there are also planets. As in the sky, outer space, here in this material world big, big aer... [break] So there also, there are many big, big aeroplanes running on.
Now, how this information received? When Bhāgavata was compiled five thousand years ago, there was no existence of aeroplane. But how in the Bhāgavata the information of aeroplane is there? If men were less intelligent five thousand years ago, and now they have advanced, then how persons five thousand years ago... Not five thousand years; many, many millions of years ago the information was there. But from historical point of view, at least five thousand years ago. So how they give this information of airplane? Hmm? So how you can say that some forty thousand years ago... What is the Darwin's theory? There was no brain?
Śyāmasundara: Apelike creatures.
Prabhupāda: So how this nonsense theory can be accepted? Huh? According to our Vedic information, from the very beginning the one person, one living creature, was Brahmā, the most intelligent person. Not that he developed from monkey. This nonsense theory killed the human civilization. The intelligence is coming from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the most intelligent person is receiving that---Brahmā. And then he is distributing this knowledge.
So knowledge has not developed with the development of the brain of the living entities. That is a wrong theory. Knowledge is already there. And the most intelligent person received it, and it is being distributed still. Therefore Vedic knowledge is considered to be the perfect. And if we take knowledge from the Vedas, then our knowledge is perfect. Now here is the knowledge.
What is the purport?
Pradyumna: Purport = "It appears that in the Vaikuṇṭha planets there are airplanes also, brilliantly glowing, and they are occupied by the great devotees of the Lord, with ladies of celestial beauty as brilliant as lightning. As there are airplanes, so there must be different types of carriages also, like the airplanes, and they may not be driven machines as we have experience in this world. Because everything is of the same nature of eternity, bliss and knowledge, the airplanes and carriages are of the same quality as Brahman. As there is nothing except Brahman, so it should not be misconceived that there is only void and no variegatedness. To think like that is due to a poor fund of knowledge. Otherwise, no one would have such a misconception of voidness in the Brahman.
"As there are airplanes, ladies and gentlemen, so there must be cities and houses and everything else just suitable to the particular planets. One should not carry the ideas of imperfection from this world to the transcendental world without taking into consideration the nature of the atmosphere as completely free from the influence of time, etc., as described previously."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So in all other planets, not only within this material world, but also in the spiritual world... There are also varieties of planets. The difference is = here the varieties are made of matter, and there the varieties are made of spirit. That's all. There are two things = material energy and spiritual energy. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. The material energy is also one, mahat-tattva. But bahudhā iva bhāti, ivābhāti. The one thing is matter. But bahudhā ivābhāti. What is that?
Pradyumna: Bahu-rūpa ivābhāti māyayā bahu-rūpayā [SB 2.9.2].
Prabhupāda: Where is that verse?
Pradyumna: It's the second verse.
Prabhupāda: Bahu-rūpa ivābhāti māyayā bahu-rūpayā. Actually this is māyā, but bahu-rūpayā, by the interaction of the three modes of material nature, there are varieties. Similarly, in the spiritual world, although the spirit is one, there are also varieties, saṁvit... There are... These three qualities, there it is known... What is that called? Now, just now I forget. Saṁvit sandinī. Sandinī saṁvit. That is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, there also, varieties.
So the Māyāvādī philosopher, they have no information of the spiritual world; therefore they are thinking that spirit means something void of all these varieties. They cannot conceive that in the variety there can be enjoyment. Here they have got very bad experience of varieties. Therefore they want to make... Buddha theory is like that, varieties, varieties---the earth, water, air, fire. So if this body is made of all these varieties, so you make it nirvāṇa; you kill it or dismantle it to the varieties.
Just like when anything in this material world, when it is annihilated, it goes. This, our body... Just like when we leave this body, the matter remains there, lump of matter. Gradually it becomes decomposed, and some water comes out. The water goes to the water, the earthly part goes to the earth, the fiery part goes to the fiery. In this way, this combination of matter becomes dismantled. That is called nirvāṇa: finished.
That is Buddha theory, that "By chance, a combination of material elements has formed this body, and by chance, a living force has come out, manifested, and on account of the living consciousness, we are feeling pains and pleasure. So in order to stop the so-called pains and pleasure, you dismantle this machine. Then there is no more... You become zero. Then there is no more pains and pleasure." This is Buddha's theory. The same principle, that you have got some pain on your head, so the theory is that break your head. Sometime I suggested to our Sarasvatī that "You break your head and there will be no pain." So this theory is like that. Instead of mending...
This is the lack of knowledge. Mūḍha. Mūḍha. The pains and pleasure... One man in the prison life, he is simply suffering, I mean, so many pains and pleasure. There is no pleasure; simply pain. So he is trying to commit suicide. So sometimes people do that, suicide. They think that "If I kill, if I commit suicide, then all these pains and pleasures will be finished," because he has no information that a body is an instrumental to feel pains and pleasure. Actually, I, as the spirit soul, I am unattached to it. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan [SB 2.9.1]. Ātma-māyā. It is a creation of, temporary creation. So if I get out of this temporary creation and be situated in my own position, then there is no more pains and pleasure. It is simply pleasure.
Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to change the consciousness. Now I am conscious of this material combination, this body, mind; therefore I am feeling pains and pleasure. And as soon as I am situated in my original consciousness, that "I am Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa's eternal servant I am. So let me engage in Kṛṣṇa's service," and then there is no more material pains and pleasure. It is not that... A neophyte, when he is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is feeling the same pains and pleasure, but that is due to our past habit, consciousness.
Just like aeroplane. You come down on the land, sometimes there is dizziness. You think that "I am still flying." But there is no more flying. That is stopped. Similarly, one who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material pains and pleasure has been stopped. But due to our past experience, sometimes we think, "I am still in pains and pleasure." This is due to our past experience. The same example again = just like the fan is running. You put off the switch; still, the fan is running. But actually it is not running. The running capacity has been stopped. But due to the..., what is called?
Prabhupāda: Momentum. It appears as if running. So a devotee, although sometimes it appears that he is in pains and pleasure, committing something nonsense, that is momentum.
In the next verse in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
śāṣvac chāntiṁ nigacchati
na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati
Although we find in the neophyte devotee some bad behavior due to his past experience, so we should not take him as nondevotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He is sādhu---if he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And the bad habits which are visible now, it will disappear. It will disappear.
So we have to give chance. Because we see some bad habits of a devotee, we should not reject. We should give another chance. We should give another chance, because he has taken the right things, but to past behavior he appears to be again going to the māyā's clutches. So we should not reject, but we should give chance. One may take little more time to come to the standard, but we should give him chance. If he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, very soon all these defects will be disappearing. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā. He will be completely a dharmātmā, a mahātmā.
Why? Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31] = "Anyone who has taken seriously My lotus feet, seriously surrendered to Me, he will never be vanquished. He will never be vanquished, although sometimes it appears that he is coming down." So this should be our principle. We stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything will be all right in due course of time.
So the varieties of life there is. That variety is actual variety. Here it is only perverted reflection. Here the beauty... Just like the beauty is described there, bhrājiṣṇu. Bhrājiṣṇu, all-glowing. Lasad-vimāna. Lasat, "brilliant." There is also aeroplane, but not this tin aeroplane. You see? There the aeroplanes are made of jewels and gold, brilliant. And their beauty... There also men, women there are, not that simply men devotees, no.
The men and women, they are creation. The both sexes are there, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. So nothing is different from here, but they are permanent, real. Here everything are temporary and false. This is the difference. Everything, there is also tree, there is also flower, there are also palaces, there are aeroplanes, there are chariots, there is men, women, but they are real, and here it is unreal.
The same example = the mirage. It appears exactly like water, but it is not water. It is false. But there is real water. We should not think that because it is false water, therefore there is no water; water is illu... That is Māyāvādī theory. Because here... Brahmā satyaṁ jagan mithyā: Śaṅkarācārya, that "Only Brahman, impersonal Brahman, is fact, and everything, all varieties, they are mithyā." No. They have no full information of Brahman. When we get full information of Brahman, the Supreme Brahman, Kṛṣṇa, He is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37] = He is always engaged in celestial... Not celestial; spiritual bliss, ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. His līlā, His rasa-līlā, He is playing with the cowherds boy, but there is no defects or the, what is called, in...
Prabhupāda: Inebrieties. There is no such thing. Everything is fact, and everything is real. Therefore ānandamāyā. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. There is rasa. Here is also rasa. Here rasa is not ānanda-cinmaya. This is material. There everything is real.
So bhrājiṣṇubhir yaḥ parito virājate lasad-vimānāvalibhir mahātmanām. Those vimānas, aeroplanes, belong to the mahātmanām, great, liberated devotees. So devotees are not going to be zero. They will have also aeroplane there, but not this third-class aeroplane---as soon as the machine goes wrong, it immediately crashes. There is no crashing; neither there is any necessity of machine, because there are spiritual. Just like motorcar, a machine, it requires oil, it requires petrol to run on.
But as we are spirit, we don't require anything. We can run without any arrangement of mechanical. We can experience that. A man is running, not that you have to put some petrol. Of course, we are putting petrol, this foodstuff. That is meant for the body. But if the whole thing is spiritual, there is no more necessity of these things, material ingredient. There is no necessity. That they cannot.
There the aeroplane is also spirit. It is living. It has taken the shape of aeroplane, but it is living. It is not false. Therefore there is no necessity of this petrol; simply beautiful aeroplane, and wherever you like, you can go. They are moving in the sky. And the beautiful women... They are women just like lightning. Their beauty is so brilliant, glowing, that the women, they are, themselves, are lightning. As we find lightning in the cloud, very beautiful, similarly, when these aeroplanes fly in the outer space or Vaikuṇṭha sky, it looks like lightning in the cloud.
Pramada uttamādyubhiḥ. Uttamādyubhiḥ. Here the beauty is also false because it is material. A woman is very beautiful, but as soon as the spirit soul is gone, if somebody says that "You can take this woman at your house," nobody will like. Nobody will like, because the real thing is gone. It is false beauty. The same woman, beautiful, everyone is after this = "Oh, very nice woman." But as soon as the spirit soul is... Just like dolls.
There are very, very beautiful women dolls in the tailor's showroom, and nobody cares for it. Well, everyone knows this is false. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya said that "Why you are being attracted by this woman? It is simply lump of matter. It is a simply lump of matter." Everyone, it is in our experience that a lump of matter is standing, sometimes photograph of a nice woman or the doll of a nice woman. Everyone knows that this is false. Nobody is attracted.
So therefore there, there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual. The body is also spiritual. He is and everything... There is no distinction between body and soul. Everything is one. That we cannot experience now, but we have to get information from these authorized book. Therefore they are far, far better. There is no question of comparison.
Pramada uttamādyubhiḥ. Pramada. Woman's name is pramada, pramada, because as soon as one woman comes before a man, he becomes agitated. Therefore woman's name is pramada. Pramada. Pramada means agitates. Kāminī. Agitates. So there the pramada uttamādyubiḥ. Uttama. Udgata-tama. Tama, this darkness, is not there. Savidyut. Savidyud abhrāvalibhir yathā nabhaḥ [SB 2.9.13]. When they fly in the sky it appears just like lightning in the clouds. These are the description of Vaikuṇṭha planet.
So, what is your question? Any question?
Devotee (1): I have a question, Your Divine Grace. You say in Vaikuṇṭha everything is the same as here in the material world. So there are families. The children... Do the children grow to...?
Prabhupāda: There is no children. There is no children, because there is no birth, there is no death. So there is no question of children. You don't find any description of children.
Devotee (2): In the material world, variety is created by the attraction of three modes of nature.
Devotee (2): The three modes of material nature cause the variety in this material world. In the spiritual world, what are the factors which cause variety?
Prabhupāda: That saṁvit, sandinī, varieties of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy.
Trivikrama: In Kṛṣṇaloka there are children---Kṛṣṇa, the cowherd boys.
Prabhupāda: That is also eternal. That is another planet. Eternally Kṛṣṇa is playing with the cowherds boy. Not that these children are being born. They are like... Just like in this world also we see Kumāras, that eternally child, Kumāras, the four Kumāras. They are born along with the Brahmā, but they're just like a small, four-years-old boy, kumāra, catuḥsana-kumāra. So we get some information only, but you will see them practically when you go. [laughter] You take information only. But it is not variety-less, not the nonsense theory, zero. That is the first thing. It is not zero.
So any other question? Nirviśeṣa-saviśeṣa. There Kṛṣṇa is dancing always with the gopīs. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. There everything is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's own form. Here is also. This is also expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy, material energy. And that is... Just try to understand like this. Here everything is by the expansion of Kṛṣṇa's material energy. And there, everything is there by His spiritual energy. That's all.
Something made of sugar and something made of dirt. The sugar is always sweet, and dirt is always detestful. That's all. Two dolls = one is made of clay, another is made of sugar. Which one you will like? Children? Two dolls. One is made of sugar and another is made of this clay. Which one would you like?
Prabhupāda: Because that doll, wherever you lick up, is sweet, and this doll made of clay, you cannot lick. So that is the only explanation. This... Kṛṣṇa says that bhūmir āpo... Apareyam. Aparā. "These are My inferior energies." Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā: "Beyond this, there is another prakṛti, another nature. That is parā, superior." The superior? How I can understand this inferior and superior? Now the sup... Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho [Bg. 7.5], that "Superior energies are jīva, living entity."
Just like here the matter is there, and the living entity is there, but the living entity is controlling the matter. Controlling the matter. Not the matter is independent. The matter independently cannot become this your tape recorder. When the superior energy, living entity, collects them, applies his intelligence and converts into a tape recorder, it works. It is nothing but a lump of matter, only tin and some metal and some paper and something like that.
So this superior energy, when it acts on it, then it can work. Therefore, similarly, here this whole material world is made of the inferior energy. Both the energies are of Kṛṣṇa. They are emanating from Kṛṣṇa. But one is inferior energy; the other is superior energy. That's all. This is the difference between material world and the spiritual world.
So in the spiritual world there is no need of making mechanical arrangement, because everything is spirit. There is no need of mechanical arrangement. That we cannot accommodate with our poor brain at the present moment. But simply try to understand that as we find here superior energy and inferior energy, without the superior energy the inferior energy has no value. This tape recorder, so long the superior energy is handling, it is giving the desired result.
But if you don't handle, if some superior energy, some human being, does not tackle it, it has no value; it is matter only. It is matter. Out of its own accord it cannot act. But if it was made of spirit, then out of his own accord it can play. There is no need of handling. Just like if I ask you, "Bring me a glass of water," so immediately the glass of water is here. But if I ask this, "Give me a glass of water," it cannot. That is difference between matter and spirit.
So in the spiritual world there is no need of artificial, mechanical arrangement. Everything is living force. That is the difference. And the Māyāvādī philosophers... Therefore they are called Māyāvādī. They are so fool that even in Kṛṣṇa they find difference, that Kṛṣṇa has also got a soul. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan states[?], "It is not to Kṛṣṇa the person, but within." He is such a fool that he does not know that there is no within and without Kṛṣṇa. And he is trying to comment on Bhagavad-gītā. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He's distinction, making distinction.
Just like we have got distinction---I am a spirit soul; I am covered by this matter---Kṛṣṇa is not like that. If He is covered by matter, then how He can remember some forty millions of years ago He spoke Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god? How He can remember? He does not die. He has no material body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā: "Those who are rascals, they deride upon Me as a ordinary human being." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam avajānanto [Bg. 9.11] = "They do not know what is the essence of My position. Therefore they conclude like that."
They have got experience that there is superior soul and inferior matter. "So Kṛṣṇa has also got the superior soul and inferior matter, material body." No. Kṛṣṇa has no material body. Otherwise, how He can remember what He spoke forty millions of... Arjuna cannot. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni: He knows past, present and future. Svabhijñāh svarat. These things are there.
So as soon as you also get rid of this material body, you also become like that, like Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So in order to get... That is our original body. So in order to get that original body, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is there.
Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So, anything more?
Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...enjoy as much as possible. "Let me come fifty miles and take this wild bird, toasted. Very tasteful." Because their life will be finished, "So whatever taste and enjoyment I can enjoy, let me finish it, because after this body is finished, everything will be finished." But our is not...
The body may finish, but our spiritual enjoyment is there if we get our spiritual consciousness. This is our proposition. We will get varieties of enjoyment. Chale-bale lāḍḍhu kha śrī-madhumaṅgala [Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura]. There is only store in lāḍḍu and kachorī in Vṛndāvana. Rābṛi. Makhana. Kṛṣṇa is makhanacora. Makhana, thief is His...
Devotees: Jaya. [kīrtana] [end]