Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.1–9 , Tokyo , 1972-04-27

Pradyumna: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. [devotees repeat]

Prabhupāda: Which chapter?

Pradyumna: Er, this is Chapter... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...Canto... [break]

Pradyumna: [leads devotees in chanting ślokas 1-9, with Prabhupāda correcting some pronunciation] [Prabhupāda and devotees repeat] [break]

śrī-śuka uvāca
ātma-māyām ṛte rājan
na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ
svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā
bahu-rūpa ivābhāti
māyayā bahu-rūpayā
ramamāṇo guṇeṣv asyā
mamāham iti manyate
yarhi vāva mahimni sve
parasmin kāla-māyayoḥ
rameta gata-sammohas
tyaktvodāste tadobhayam
yad āha bhagavān ṛtam
brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam
sa ādi-devo jagatāṁ paro guruḥ
svadhiṣṇyam āsthāya sisṛkṣayaikṣata
tāṁ nādhyagacchad dṛśam atra sammatāṁ
prapañca-nirmāṇa-vidhir yayā bhavet
sa cintayan dvy-akṣaram ekadāmbhasy
upāśṛṇod dvir-gaditaṁ vaco vibhuḥ
sparśeṣu yat ṣoḍaśam ekaviṁśaṁ
niṣkiñcanānāṁ nṛpa yad dhanaṁ viduḥ
niśamya tad-vaktṛ-didṛkṣayā diśo
vilokya tatrānyad apaśyamānaḥ
svadhiṣṇyam āsthāya vimṛśya tad-dhitaṁ
tapasy upādiṣṭa ivādadhe manaḥ
divyaṁ sahasrābdam amogha-darśano
jitānilātmā vijitobhayendriyaḥ
atapyata smākhila-loka-tāpanaṁ
tapas tapīyāṁs tapatāṁ samāhitaḥ
tasmai sva-lokaṁ bhagavān sabhājitaḥ
sandarśayām āsa paraṁ na yat-param
sva-dṛṣṭavadbhir puruṣair abhiṣṭutam


Pradyumna: "...attracted to the..." [break]


Prabhupāda: ...transcendental vibration. So everything is there. If you do not practice, what can I do? The transliteration is there, the accent is there, and now our Pradyumna is there also. Utilize time and become attracted. As Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive, you become attracted at least to some. Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive. You cannot become all-attracted. At least you become attracted to some. They are becoming attractive by good apartment, by shaving the beard or..., like that. You told me they are trying to remain young?

Sudāmā: Yes, yes. You have given us so many. Now we have so much to start. So many mantras, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Īśopaniṣad.

Prabhupāda: [chuckles] Yes. Huge. So why you are not utilizing this facility?

Sudāmā: We're missing the point.

Prabhupāda: This evening you will have to chant these verses and you will explain. Who will explain? You will explain? That's all right. Then I shall speak. First of all let them hear from my disciples, then I shall speak. Is it all right?

Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So you practice whole day how to pronounce these ślokas.

Pradyumna: Better all chant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And explain. Practice like this. Then wherever you go, you will be all respected.

Pradyumna: Tasmai... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...very nice. What is this? It is not even W.C. in comparison to the higher planetary building.

Pradyumna: Does not even...?

Prabhupāda: W.C.

Sudāmā: W.C., toilet.

Devotees: Water closet. W.C.

Prabhupāda: What is called? W.C.? What is it?

Devotee: Water closet.

Devotee (2): Oh, water closet.

Prabhupāda: That means your lavatory. [laughter] Therefore the demigods do not come here even to urine. [laughter] Formerly they used to come. Now they do not come, because it is not fit for their urining. Here, we are very much proud of our advancement, but the demigods do not come even to pass urine. Why they should come?

Now, because another house is raised here, even a common man is not coming to urine here. A little less facility, so they are not occupying. So why the demigods will come to this nonsense place? You can understand. These apartments are lying vacant on account of a little less facility. So why the demigods?

Their comforts and their standard of living is many millions times better than yours. You cannot imagine even. The more you go to the higher planetary system, their standard of living is still higher, higher---duration of life, standard of living, beauty, other facilities. Why they are called higher planetary system? Here in this planet even you don't get the sunshine sufficiently. The bare necessities.

Now you can experience that when you go above the cloud by aeroplane you see there is no more cloudy; the sunshine is free. You can imagine how, in the higher planetary system, the sunshine is so free. And here, as soon as there is little sunshine, oh, today, "Good morning. Today is very good morning" In London, Lennon's gardener, he was meeting, I was walking. He was Mr. Johnson or something.

Śyāmasundara: Frank.

Prabhupāda: Frank? So, "Swāmījī, today is really good morning." "Yes." Otherwise it is dark. And actually, countries which have no sufficient sunshine, they are condemned. I told you frankly, "Your London is hell," in that television. Actually it is hell. We could understand from outside, London, simply dark, moist, everything damp. The trees, they have got, what is called?

Devotee: Moss.

Prabhupāda: Moss. Yes. Gather moss for want of sufficient sunshine.

Devotee: It's a swamp.

Sudāmā: People get little relief from their misery and they say, "Oh, I am happy now."

Prabhupāda: Yes. From the misery, Mr. John is happy by becoming naked and having water..., fireplace. He is bringing the wood personally, putting there. And Yoko, Yoko is very happy, Japanese wife. She was talking philosophy with me. [laughter]

Śyāmasundara: Now he has made one song, "I don't believe in Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Who?

Śyāmasundara: John.

Sudāmā: "He is me."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So our Hare Kṛṣṇa will be advertised. [laughter] [laughs] People will be inquisitive, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa?" at least, one who does not know. So that's good.

Śyāmasundara: Because nobody believes in John Lennon anymore either.

Prabhupāda: How long it will go, bluffing?

Śyāmasundara: He is losing his...

Prabhupāda: Popularity.

Śyāmasundara: His popularity. People are becoming disappointed, because formerly he was very brilliant songwriter, but now it's become very degraded.

Pradyumna: He formerly was married before, and he had family, I think. But then he divorced to marry.

Prabhupāda: Not divorce. The contract is her former husband should live also. She has got double husband. He is living there along with him. I know that.

Śyāmasundara: Cox.

Prabhupāda: Cox. He is living there.

Devotee: Insanity. Simply insanity.

Prabhupāda: Saturday?

Devotee: Insanity.

Prabhupāda: Insanity. Yes. She [he] is the manager. What manager? He has got motorcycle and goes round. He must be given some post. And he has also married another?

Śyāmasundara: Dan?

Prabhupāda: That...

Śyāmasundara: I don't think he is legally married.

Prabhupāda: Friend. She has got..., he has got a child?

Śyāmasundara: One or two small children.

Prabhupāda: So he has to maintain all of them. On this contract that Yoko is there.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Dan was her old friend. Dan was her friend. That's why he became manager.

Prabhupāda: So all this business on the basis of sex. That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. For very insignificant happiness they are encumbered in so many ways.

yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ
kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham

Śyāmasundara: And every time she tries to have a child, because they lead such a decadent life, she has miscarriage every time.

Prabhupāda: That means she has got syphilitic poison. Girls who cannot bear child means there is syphilitic poison. Either the man has got syphilitic poison or the woman has got syphilitic poison. And for these men, syphilis is not very uncommon.

Sudāmā: In this country it is now also very, like epidemic.

Prabhupāda: Syphilis. All over Europe. When Dr. Ghosh, he is my friend, he came to see me in Allahabad? One doctor? So he is friend. So he told me that when he was student, Colonel Megor, one big professor, medicine, he was lecturing---He was Englishman---he said that "In our country, seventy to eighty percent of the student community, they are suffering from syphilitic attack." So in our country, India, if one is attacked with syphilitic, means he is taken as very abominable. His character is not good, it is understood. So he said, "Horrible," Dr. Ghosh, because he was Indian student.

So Colonel Megor replied, "Why you are saying horrible? In your country ninety percent people are attacked malaria. So there, syphilis. So as a medical practitioner, so why you take this disease as bad or that disease as good? Your business is to see that there should be no disease. Don't consider in that way, that 'This disease is good, this disease is bad.' " That's nice explanation. But fifty years ago or hundred years ago syphilitic poison was very much prevalent. Still it is in Europe and America. And now it is spreading all over.

And in Āyur Veda it is said phairāṅga. Phairāṅga. Phiriṅgī. The Europeans are described in Vedic literatures as phiriṅgī, their name is phiriṅgī. So this syphilitic disease is mentioned in the Āyur Veda, the disease brought by the phiriṅgīs. And the doctor says that originally it was spread through dog. The unmarried girls, they keep dog for sex. You do not know? He knows. You will find very beautiful girl is keeping very big dog. They are trained to have sex life. And that is cause of syphilis. The dog is full of syphilitic germs. It is called phairaṅga in the Āyur Veda. And one who has got syphilitic germs, his life is doomed.

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless it is properly treated and cured, so many disease will follow. So many. This craziness is also due to syphilitic poison of parents.

Sudāmā: There is a case of a very famous gangster, Al Capone, and others. They died in the prison house of syphilis on the mind, brain.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Sudāmā: They went crazy.

Prabhupāda: So how much by nature the sex life is condemned in so many ways. Therefore we say, "No illicit sex." It will save you from so many encumbrances. Sex life is not denied, but this unrestricted sex life is very, very abominable in human society. But they are encouraging unrestricted sex life. They are distributing tablet, encouraging others to have sex life, never mind. Unmarried girls, they are keeping dogs. One lady in America, she told me that the dogs are kept for this purpose. When I was going to walk in that park in Brooklyn, the young girls are bringing dogs, big, big dogs. You were not at that time with me?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I don't remember.

Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda. Bhavānanda was taking me to that big park.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I went. Prospect. Was it called Prospect?

Prabhupāda: Prospect Park. Yes. Hmm. [to Pradyumna] Go on. Just try to understand the situation of the world. And you are living in this world. How much careful you have to become. Yes. [break]

Pradyumna: ...vyapeta... [break]

Prabhupāda: Saṅkleśa. These are the saṅkleśa. And Kṛṣṇa showed him the Vaikuṇṭha planet, vyapeta-saṅkleśa. All these problems are not there. Go on. [break]

Pradyumna: "Five kinds of material...

[break] ...Personality of Godhead, being thus very much satisfied with the penance of Lord Brahmā, was pleased to manifest His personal abode, Vaikuṇṭha, the supreme planet above all others. This transcendental abode of the Lord is adored by all self-realized persons freed from all kinds of miseries and fearfulness of illusory existence."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. These five kinds of... Is it explained there? Five kinds of?

Śyāmasundara: Five kinds of material miseries?

Pradyumna: "The material body is overcast with five kinds of miserable conditions, namely ignorance, material conception, attachment, hatred and absorption. As long as one is overwhelmed with these five kinds of material miseries, there is no question of entering into the Vaikuṇṭhalokas."

Prabhupāda: Another five kinds of misery is pavarga = pa, pha, ba, bha, ma.

Pradyumna: Oh, yes. Pa, pha, ba, bha, ma.

Prabhupāda: Pavarga. And to counteract it is called apavarga. Apavarga-vartmani [SB 3.25.25]. So pavarga. Pa means hard labor. If you want to exist here you have to work very, very hard. Just like this man with hard labor collected some money, constructed this house. Now there is no tenant. Another hard labor to find out tenant. Is it not hard labor? [chuckles]

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In such important city, these apartments are lying vacant. That means he is earning... He has invited us to stay here to get some blessing so that tenants may come. [laughter] Āśīrvāda. Āśīrvāda. He has acquired āśīrvāda. If by the āśīrvāda he can get some tenants, this is... All these men, they simply want āśīrvāda. They don't want Kṛṣṇa. They want āśīrvāda so that their nefarious activities may continue peacefully. [laughs]

Sudāmā: Mr. Santanam was the same. He had loaned to me some money for doing some work on the temple. And then when he got promotion in his job, he came to me and said, "Sudāmā, it is by, I think, the mercy of Kṛṣṇa that I have now promotion. Please do not bother paying me the money back."

Prabhupāda: That's nice. But the difficulty is sometimes Kṛṣṇa's āśīrvāda may be just the opposite. Kṛṣṇa will take away. So at that time they become atheist. In Germany there are so many atheists born out of the second war.

Sudāmā: In Japan also.

Prabhupāda: Japan also.

Sudāmā: Japan also. After the war... In Japan, during the war the Japanese government supported..., supported a certain religious sect, Shinto religion. And they would spend thousands of dollars for ceremony for soldiers and to have good omen for the war. When they lost the war, the entire government wrote in the Constitution---now it is in the Constitution---that the government of Japan will not support any religious organization. So the people then, after losing the war, they lost faith in anything religious and they became distraught.

Prabhupāda: That is the effect of the last... The general, people in general, they expect dharma for artha. Dharma for artha. The Bhāgavata therefore explains that dharmasya... Dharmasya ca... What is that?

Pradyumna: Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya?


dharmasya hy āpavargyasya
nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate
nārthasya dharmaikāntasya
na kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ

Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya na artho 'rthāyopakalpate. One should not execute religious principles for getting better financial or material facility. That is not the purpose. But they have taken it purpose. "If we have supported this religious community, we must become victorious of our whimsical declaration of war."

That Kṛṣṇa supported the Battle of Kurukṣetra, it was not whimsical declaration of war. Before declaring war, Pāṇḍavas, even Kṛṣṇa tried to stop it in so many ways. When Duryodhana clearly said that "Not even that portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle can be given to you without war..." They were..., Kṛṣṇa personally requested that "They are kṣatriyas.

They cannot take up the work of a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra or a vaiśya. So better you give them five villages only. Let the five brothers rule over them." He replied, "What do You say of five villages? Not that portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle I can give them without war." Therefore the war was declared = "All right. Decide by war." That was not a whimsical war manufactured and maneuvered by the politician. That is dharma-yuddha. When you encroach upon my right, there must be. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mantra 1]. You cannot encroach upon others' right.

So the animal killer, they are encroaching upon others' right. This cows and goats, they are also living entities; they have got right to live. When there is absolute necessity, that is a different thing. But you cannot encroach upon their right of living simply to satisfy the taste of your tongue. That is the greatest sin. Similarly, illicit sex. One has got wife and he is having illicit sex with other woman, that is..., that is crime. "You want to satisfy your sex? All right. You have got legitimate wife." "No. I want to satisfy my senses." Therefore illicit sex is sinful. You have got many other foodstuff. Why should you satisfy your senses by killing some other right of living?

Therefore it is... Why it is sinful, anyone can understand. Just like if I have no money, that does not mean to secure money I shall take your money. Then I am thief. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no money. This man has got so much money, therefore I have taken some money." Will the court excuse you? Even if you have no food, you cannot encroach upon other's right unless you are sanctioned.

Therefore according to Vedic system, the meat-eater is given chance by sacrificing an animal before some demigod. Not free slaughterhouse. No. That you cannot do. Undergoing that process, some day he will come to his senses that "Meat-eating and killing of animal is not good." Because there are so many mantras. If you understand mantras, the mantra, when a goat is sacrificed before Goddess Kālī, before the goat being cut by his throat, the priest says that "Because you are sacrificing your life before Goddess Kālī, next life you are going to have human form of body for your this sacrifice." Otherwise you have to undergo the process. That is gradual evolutionary process.

But because you are forced somehow or other in the presence of mother material energy, she will give you the facility to promote immediately to the human form of life. And as human being, you will have every right to kill this man who is killing you. That is meaning of māṁsa. Mām means "me"; sa means "he." "He will also eat me." So I will have to take the form of a goat next life, and he will take the form of a human being, and he will get the chance of killing me. He can excuse, but he will get the chance. This is the bandhana. Karma-bandhana. So after hearing all these mantras, if one takes the risk of eating meat, let him do that. But who is that sane man who will take this risk?

This is the meaning of sacrifice. Not that it is a slaughterhouse substitute. No. They will understand that what kind of risk they are going to take by killing the animal under the name of sacrifice. Another thing is that to sacrifice the goat before the demigod Kālī means it is restricted. Because the prescription is that one can sacrifice a goat before Goddess Kālī on the dark moon night, amāvasyā. That is once in a month. So even the śāstra gives him the facility, the facility is restricted. As much as marriage. What is the difference between married sex and without wife? Restricted. You restrict to one woman. You don't spoil many women and get syphilis disease. You see? This is restricted = restricted to one man, restricted to one woman, restricted once in a month.

So actually whenever there is sanction in the śāstra, that is not encouraging; that is restriction. So one cannot give this evidence, "Oh, your Vedas say this is sanctioned." But that sanction is restriction.

loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā
nityā hi jantor na hi tatra codanā

The śāstra is not encouraging. Because there is no need of encouraging. It is already known to him. Why the śāstras encourage? This is not encouragement. This is restriction. The same example can be given = just like when government opens liquor shop it is not encouragement; it is restriction. You cannot have liquor manufactured by yourself anywhere, everywhere; otherwise it will increase more and more. So you have to pay heavy tax and purchase. And there are so many other rules and regulation. So this is restriction. When there is liquor shop licensed by the government, it does not mean it is encouragement. At least that is the philosophy. It is restriction.

So all these facilities given sometimes in the śāstras or by the government for drinking or for intoxication or for sex or for gambling, that is restricted. Gambling... Kṣatriyas, they can gamble. They must have the sporting spirit. Otherwise when they are defeated, they will succumb to death. So they have to... The gambling, I lose one hundred thousand dollars, "Never mind. It is sporting." Otherwise I will succumb to death. I have been... In [indistinct]. That is being done in gambling clubs. But if you do it in a sporting habit, then "Never mind. I gain or lose, it is nothing." That's all.

Kṣatriyas are allowed, because when they fight they will have to gain or to lose. But if they lose, if they become succumbed, then it will be very difficult for them. They are allowed to hunt. If they cannot kill, then how can they rule over the criminals? The kṣatriya king, "Oh, he is a criminal...?" Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Such a Vaiṣṇava king. As soon as he saw somebody is trying to kill a cow, immediately took his sword = "What nonsense you are doing? Immediately I shall kill you." A kṣatriya must be spirited. Immediately cut off. Even in England, that was the practice. They used to practice dummy men, cut head. The king must be like that.

Sudāmā: Here also. Here also there was a class of men called samurai, and they carried long sword and short sword. And they had certain rules for fighting. They would never fight a man unless he was equally matched. And if he lost, then he must take... If I lose the battle, then I must take the short sword and kill myself for shame, for dishonor.

Prabhupāda: Not only that; when Kṛṣṇa was fighting with Rukmiṇī's brother, he lost his chariot. So, and Rukmiṇī took the sword. So Kṛṣṇa also throw His bow and arrows; He also took the sword. Not that "I shall possess better weapons to kill you." No. Equal. Equal terms. "If you have no sword, I will give you a sword." Yes. "Take this sword. I take another." That is kṣatriya spirit. Sporting. So for kṣatriya, this animal killing, this, which is abominable, but they require.

Devotee: Intoxication too?

Prabhupāda: Intoxication also. Just like Balarāma, He was drinking madhu. Yes. You have not read it? He was also enjoying in the company of women. Because He is kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas are allowed polygamy, drinking, intoxication, because they are king. They must have facility. At the same time, they are ruling over the country. They take consulting great sages, saintly person. And if he is not in order, these saintly persons would dethrone him. Pṛthu Mahārāja's father was killed, Veṇa. He was not according to the system. He was killed.

Pradyumna: I don't understand how sometimes we..., how the intoxication of some type of wine would go along with the ruling of a country.

Prabhupāda: Well, for rulers is a pleasure. They must have some pleasure. Just like ordinary men, they drink with woman, dancing, it is a recreation. So this is material recreation, to be little intoxicated, and several nice young girls around. That gives him some encouragement. You see? They have to take so much risk, so much responsibility. For recreation they require it. They should be given little facility.

Devotee: Can they still make spiritual advancement? Spiritual advancement?

Prabhupāda: Well, spiritual advancement is going on. They are taking advice from great saintly persons, they are observing, they are performing big, big sacrifices, spending money, treasury. That is their spiritual advancement. You are satisfying Kṛṣṇa in spite of... All these devatās, the demigods, they also enjoy. In higher planetary system, like Indra, he is prostitute-hunter number one, Indra. [laughter] But he is a great devotee at the same time.

Devotee: But he is still in material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is material. So those who are going to directly to transfer to the spiritual world, for them all these things are prohibited. But those who want to remain here, at the same time they have got some particular duty, these are also. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says those who are preparing, bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya niṣkiñcanasya [Cc. Madhya 11.8], they must give up all these things. They should be niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya yad dhanaṁ viduḥ [SB 2.9.6]. You have read that?

Niṣkiñcana. Devotee, they don't want all these, anything, any glaring possession. Even Brahmā. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that brahma-janme nāhi mora āśa: "I don't care for to take birth as Brahmā." Kīṭa-janma hau jathā tuwā dās [Śaraṇāgati] = "Better let me become an insect where Your devotee is there." So our purpose is different. We don't want even the exalted place like Brahmā in this material world. We don't want. That is our determination. We want Kṛṣṇa, go back to home, back to Godhead.

Pradyumna: Could that be..., could these enjoyments of the kṣatriyas...

Prabhupāda: Therefore paraṁ na yat-param. What is that verse? Paraṁ na...

Pradyumna: Yat-param.

Prabhupāda: Yat-param.

Pradyumna: Sandarśayām āsa paraṁ na yat-param.

Prabhupāda: Param. We are seeing here in this material world, this apartment is better than the down apartment. So it is param. Param means better, superior quality. So here in this material world we are finding out something superior than the other, because it is relative world. But the kingdom of Godhead, Vaikuṇṭha, na yat-param: there is no more param. Finished. All param finished.

Pradyumna: Ah, nothing is superior than this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Param. Param. You can say, "It is a very nice apartment. Why shall I [go] after Vaikuṇṭha?" But he has no idea. He thinks that "If I go to Europe, I get a better standard of living, better woman and better salary." But he has no idea what is param. Therefore, paraṁ na yat-param: there is no more superior. All superior finished. This is Bhāgavata. Paraṁ na yat-param. Final.

Final beauty, Kṛṣṇa. Final opulence, final strength, final wisdom. Everything final in Kṛṣṇa, ultimate. No more. Na yat-param. Therefore He is called Parameśvara. Īśvara means commander. There are many commander, controller, but Kṛṣṇa is called Parameśvara = "No more." And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Para means superior. "There is no more superior than Me." Paraṁ na yat-param. This is meaning of...

So have saṅkīrtana?

Devotee: Jaya. [end]