Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.2.5 , Sydney , 1972-04-03
Prabhupāda: [prema-dhvani] Thank you very much.
Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrī Guru and Gauranga. Hari Haribol!
yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno
Just I wish to thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your coming here to participate in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This movement is not a new thing or something concocted, but it is authorized and very old movement. There was a meeting about five thousand years ago in a place which is called Naimiṣāraṇya. That Naimiṣāraṇya is still there in India. There is a railway station which is called Nimsar. It is near Lucknow, in the northern part of India. Those who have gone to India, they may know this place. This is very old place. And still, if you go, you will find there immediately a spiritual atmosphere. There are many places in India where, if you go, you will find immediately a spiritual atmosphere.
So this verse I am just now quoting is the verse given by Sūta Gosvāmī, the president of the meeting. In that meeting many learned scholars, brāhmaṇas, they assembled to discuss about Kṛṣṇa. The question was that "After departure of Kṛṣṇa from this planet, dharma and jñāna"---dharma means religious principles, and jñāna means knowledge---"these two things, who has taken care of them?" Dharma-jñānādibhiḥ saha [SB 1.3.43]. Actually, human society should be concerned with two things = dharma and jñāna. Dharma means the characteristic.
The meaning of dharma translated in English is not adequate. Dharma means which cannot be given up. The so-called dharma, or religion... Suppose I am Hindu and somebody is Christian. This is called faith. The dictionary meaning is = "religion is faith." So faith can be changed. "I believe in Christian religion," so it can be changed next day---I accept Hindu religion or Muslim religion. But actually, dharma cannot be changed.
The example is given = just like water. The characteristic of water is liquidity. So you cannot change this quality of water, liquidity. Similarly, stone is solid. You cannot change the quality of solid. This unchangeable quality is called dharma. That is really Sanskrit significance. Now, you can argue that water sometimes becomes solid, ice. That is conditional. Under certain condition, the water becomes solid, but immediately it begins to become liquid. It melts. The tendency is to melt, not to keep solidity. So this consistency of keeping water in liquid form is called dharma.
So as everything has got some particular characteristic, similarly we living entities, we must have some particular characteristic. And what is that? That is dharma and jñāna, to understand. Jñāna means knowledge = "What I am? Am I this body, or I am something else?" But if we study, if we meditate on the body... You study every part of your body. Take for example this finger. If you think, "Am I this finger?" the answer will be "No, it is my finger." Similarly, you study any part of your body, you will find that the part of body belongs to you. You'll say, "It is my leg, my hand, my hair, my nose." So many things "my." Then where is the "I"? That is called jñāna. That is knowledge. Everything is "my," but where I am? Where I am?
Besides that, so far I am concerned, I do not want so many things. So many things. Just like I do not want to become old, but old age is forced upon me; I must become old. I do not want to die. Then death is forced upon me. I do not want to take birth. These are all very troublesome business. We have forgotten birth, death, old age and disease. But when we are within the womb of our mother, it is very precarious condition. Any medical man knows.
We have to live there in this way, in a packed-up bag, practically without any air, airtight condition. Just imagine. Now just at the present moment if you are put into a airtight condition, you will die without three minutes or three seconds. The medical opinion is that. But in the womb of our mother we have to live for clear ten months or more than that in that airtight, packed-up condition. Just imagine how much troublesome condition was there. That is practical.
We may have forgotten. So many things we have forgotten. But that does not mean the trouble was not there. Just like in our childhood so many things happened. We might have forgotten, but that does not mean the trouble was not there. The trouble was there. Similarly, at the time of death, the trouble, or the miserable condition, is so acute that we have to give up this body. Sometimes when man becomes very much upset, he commits suicide. He cuts his own throat. Why? He cannot live in this body. Similarly, I, you, every one of us, we have the trouble at the time of death, at the time of birth.
Birth and death. We are living entities, we are living soul. Birth and death takes place of this body. The body takes birth and the body is vanquished. Death means sleeping for seven months. That's all. That is death. The soul is... When this body is unfit for living, the soul gives up this body. And by superior arrangement the soul is put again into the womb of a particular type of mother, and the soul develops that particular type of body. Up to seven months the soul remains unconscious. And when the body is developed, again consciousness comes and the child wants to come out of the womb, and he moves. Every mother has experience how the child moves at the age of seven months within the womb.
So it is a great science how the soul, living soul, is in contact with this material body and how he is transmigrating from one body to another. The example is given just like vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. We are... Just like when the garments, our shirt and coat, becomes too old, we give it up and we accept another shirt and coat... Similarly, I, you, every one of us, we are spirit soul. We, we are given a type of body or shirt and coat by the arrangement of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. That particular body is given to us for our particular type of standard of living.
Just like you European, American, Australians, you have got a particular type, and you are given the opportunity, a particular standard of living. Just if some Indian comes to your European, American, Australian cities, just like your Melbourne city... I was just speaking to my students, "If any Indian comes, so they will be surprised with this standard of living. They will think that, er, it is heaven." Because the material prosperity is far different from Indian cities to these American or European Australian. There is much difference.
So you have got a particular type of body. You have been given the chance of particular standard of living. Similarly, in India or in Africa or in other country, the living entity has got a particular type of body, and his particular type of standard of living is also there. A tiger has got a particular type of body; it has got his own standard of living. Elephant has got a particular type of body, and it has got its standard of living. Similarly, there are higher beings also, in the higher planetary system. They are called Svargaloka, Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapoloka, Brahmaloka. In the Brahmaloka the duration of life is so long that you cannot imagine even calculating twelve hours' time there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Most of you have read Bhagavad-gītā, and it is stated there, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17].
Sahasra-yuga-paryantam. One yuga... This is Kali-yuga. At the present moment it is called Kali-yuga. Before this... This Kali-yuga has passed only five thousand years, and the duration of life of this Kali-yuga is 432,000's of years. Only we have passed five thousand. Before this Kali-yuga there was another yuga, which is known as Dvāpara-yuga. Before that, there was Tretā-yuga. Before that, there was Satya-yuga. All these yugas, taking aggregate years, forty-three hundred thousands of years, and multiply it by one thousand---then calculate what is the duration of time. That is only twelve hours duration in the Brahmaloka. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17].
So there are very particular informations of all the planets within this universe. Not only within this universe; there are many other planets beyond this universe. That is called Vaikuṇṭhaloka, spiritual world. The spiritual sky is there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā = paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That is perpetual, that anything in that sky is perpetual, and anything within this material sky, they are temporary.
In the Brahmaloka there may be duration of life millions of millions of year, but that is also destructible. That is material nature. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16] = "Even if you go to the Brahmaloka, you will have to come back again." Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6] = "But if you come to My loka..." There is Kṛṣṇaloka. That is in the spiritual world, spiritual sky.
So these informations are there in the Vedic literature. And it is a fact that we are transmigrating from one body to another, one planet to another. That is a fact. Just like I have come to your country, similarly I may go to another planet. It is the question of how to go there, what is the means. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
So it is stated that if you want to go to the sun planet or moon planet---there are many heavenly planets---you can go there. Yānti deva-vratā devān. Then you have to prepare in this life how to go there. You cannot go there by force, with your sputnik or some jet plane or something like that. That you cannot go. That is not possible. Therefore these people who are trying to go to the moon planet, they are now frustrated.
So whatever it may be, the chance is there. We have written one small booklet in this connection = Easy Journey to Other Planets. If you like, you can read that. So there are innumerable planets, innumerable living standard. Standard of living innumerable. Just like your standard of living materially is very nice or far greater than the Indian standard of life or any other standard of life. So if you go to other planets you will find still thousand times better standard of living. If you go still up, thousand times better standard of living. This is God's creation.
There is God. As you have created this Melbourne city by your energy, similarly the whole creation is manifestation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You cannot defy it. This is called jñāna, knowledge, to know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is His energies, how they are working, how these wonderful acts are going on within this universe. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a bogus movement. It is a very scientific movement. It is meant for human knowledge.
There are immense knowledges, but if we are simply interested with the necessities of the body, just like the animals, then we are missing the chance. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām [Hitopadeśa]. "This eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense---these things are there in the animal life." Even a hog, he is working day and night to find out where is stool. He likes stool. He eats stool and becomes very fatty. He enjoys.
So this kind of endeavor, simply eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, that is common to the animals and to the human being. But human being has got a special prerogative. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness = to know God, to know himself, to know this world. Knowledge. Not that just like... We are, of course, trying to advancement of knowledge simply for these items = how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse and how to defend. So this is also required. So long we have got this body, we don't say that "Don't try for this." But your particular knowledge, to know yourself, to know God, why you are dismissing that? That is not very good idea.
You have... These śāstras---I have quoted so many things from the śāstra, from the books of knowledge---it is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. We have called this meeting. We have not invited cats and dogs, we have invited human beings, because the human being can understand. The cats and dogs, however I may speak from Vedic literature, from Bhagavad-gītā or from Bhāgavata, it is not possible for the cats and dogs to understand. Their body is different. But our body, human being, is especially meant for this purpose.
Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of...
Devotee: Bharata Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name the India is called... Not India. This whole planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. In the Vedic literature Bhārata-varṣa means this planet. And it is consisting seven islands. That is also mentioned in Vedic literature. Seven islands means Asia, Europe, Africa, North America, South America, Australia, and Oceania. These seven islands are also mentioned. Description is there.
So this Bhārata-varṣa... This planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. Now it is divided. Now it is divided because on account of loss of the old Vedic culture we have now divided. I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking "Australian." Another is thinking "American" or "Englishman." These divisions have come very lately, say about three thousand, four thousand years ago. Before that, this planet was one. There was only one king. We get this information from Vedic literature. And he was ruling all over them. The culture was one. That is Vedic culture. Still, I hear some of my student was telling that in Australia there is some Hindu temple somewhere.
So apart from that, the thing is, we are just trying to revive this original consciousness of the human society. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't try to misunderstand. Original consciousness. Just like these boys, mostly they are Europeans, Americans, Canadians. These boys, they are not Indians, neither their father or grandfather knew about Kṛṣṇa. Might be some of them had read Bhagavad-gītā, but nothing particular, the science of Kṛṣṇa. Now, how they have taken this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement so seriously? The only thing is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a foreign thing. Every one of you have got Kṛṣṇa consciousness within you. It is lying dormant. It has simply to be aroused. Simply to be aroused.
One poet, Vaiṣṇava poet, he is authority, he says,
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
[Cc. Madhya 22.107]
Udaya means awaken. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there in everyone's heart. It is dormant. Simply by śravaṇādi, by pure hearing process... Just like a man is sleeping. The consciousness is there, but he appears to be unconscious. He is sleeping. But if somebody calls him, "Mr. Such-and-such, wake up, wake up, wake up." So after two, three callings, he wakes up. He remembers, "Oh, I have got to do so many things." Similarly, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dormant in everyone's heart. This Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is the process of awakening. That's all. This Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, if we chant repeatedly Hare Kṛṣṇa---Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare---then the sleeping man awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the process.
So I do not wish to take much of your time. I have simply given introduction to this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is very simple thing. You do not lose anything. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa at your home. Do you think you will be loser? No. Neither we want any money from you, that "Pay me so many dollars, I give you some particular mantra." No. It is not like that. It is open. Everyone can chant. But if you chant, then you will be benefited. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Your heart will be cleansed.
Now we are in so many consciousness = "I am this, I am that, I am this, I am that, I am this, I am that." And therefore there is so much trouble all over the world, because we have misidentified with this body, which is simply shirt and coat. Suppose we are sitting, so many ladies and gentlemen, if we simply fight on the basis of our dress, "Oh, you are not in such dress. I am in such dress. Therefore you are my enemy," this is not very good argument. Because I am in different dress, so I am not your enemy. And because you are in different dress, you are not enemy. But that is going on. That is going on. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that." And the fighting is going on on this point only.
So if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this rascaldom will go. Just like these you see, all the students. They don't think that they are Indian or American or African or... No. They are thinking, "We are servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is wanted. That is wanted. Unless we are coming to that point of understanding, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam... [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am pure soul, spirit soul. This body is, the material body, is my covering."
That is called jñāna, knowledge. And as soon you come to the point of knowledge, then there will be vairāgya. Vairāgya means renunciation. Just like these boys, these girls. They are American. They lived under their parents in high standard of life. Now they can sit anywhere. They can sit on the street, because they have forgotten this bodily concept of life. They are simply thinking in terms of Kṛṣṇa consciousness = "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa."
So this is very scientific movement, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart = "What I am? What is God? What is my relationship with God? What is this material world? Why I have come here? Why I am suffering? Why I have to accept birth? Why I have to accept death? Why I have to accept disease? Why I have to accept old age?" These are the problems. These are the problems, and these problems can be solved in human form of life, not in the life of cats and dogs. They cannot. So our only request is that you make your life successful. Come to the real understanding of your existence. And this is possible simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.
Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes.
Guest (1): Are the seven planets which you mentioned related at all to the seven colors or to the seven jewels of the yogī?
Śyāmasundara: The seven planetary systems, do they correspond to the seven colors and the seven jewels of the yogī?
Prabhupāda: No. There is seven planetary systems over us and seven planetary systems down us. Therefore this universe is called caturdaśa-bhuvana: fourteen planetary systems. This is called Bhūrloka. Above this, there is Bhuvarloka. Above that, there is Janaloka. Above that, there is Maharloka. Above that, there is Satyaloka. Above that, there is Brahmaloka, the highest planetary system. Similarly, down also, we have got Tala, Atala, Talātala, Vitala, Pātāla, Rasātala. This information we get from Vedic literature, fourteen worlds.
Each and every universe is consisting of these fourteen planetary systems, and there are innumerable universes. So that we also get information from Brahmā-saṁhitā = yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. Jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Jagad-aṇḍa means this universe is a big, I mean to say, volume. Just like aṇḍa, egg. Every, everything, every planet is just like egg. This brahmāṇḍa, this universe, is also like egg. So there are many, many, many millions of jagad-aṇḍa. And in each and every jagad-aṇḍa, koṭiṣu vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, there are innumerable planets also. So these are the information we get from Vedic literature. If you like, you can accept. If you don't like, you can reject. That is up to you. Yes?
Guest (2): Your Grace, the question I would like to ask you is = is there any philosophy, doctrine, creed or, for that matter, ritual that can bring God down to the point of a human thought, reduce God to a human process of thought?
Prabhupāda: No, God cannot be forced to come down. Then He is not God. You see? If God but comes here, He comes down by His own pleasure. You cannot force God. We get this information from Bhagavad-gītā. He said that,
glānir bhavati bhārata
tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham
"Whenever there is religious discrepancies and uprise of irreligious principles, at that time I come down." So God cannot be forced. Just like at night you cannot force the sun to rise. You have no such power. The sun will rise in a due course of time, in the morning. At that time you can see sun. You can see the sun, you can see yourself, and you can see the world.
But at the darkness you cannot force. You have no such searchlight, scientific advancement, that you can force. Similarly, if you cannot force a material object like sun to abide by your orders, how you can make God forced to come down? So He comes down at His own will, not by your word. God is not like that.
Guest (3): What is your belief in eternal life, and how do you attain perfection to eternal life?
Prabhupāda: They are life[?] material, and life is for spiritual.
Śyāmasundara: Eternal life.
Prabhupāda: Eternal? Eternal life. We are all eternal. Just like you were a child or you were a baby, you were a boy; now you are a young man. Similarly, I was also. Now I am old man. But I remember that I had a small body, a little more grown-up body, little more grown. All those bodies are now gone, but I am remembering. Therefore I am eternal. With the change of the body or passing away of the body, I do not die. I am eternal. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. As there were so many changes and still I am existing, similarly, when this body will be finished, I will exist in another body. Therefore I am eternal.
Guest (4): What is your understanding of God? Is He something apart from us, or are we all together God? Do you know?
Śyāmasundara: What is your understanding of God? Is He apart from us or are we all together God?
Prabhupāda: Well, as you are apart from me, similarly, God is also apart from us. God is also an individual person as you are individual person, I am individual person, but the difference between God and you and me is this, that you know your business, I know my business, but God knows everyone's business. That is the difference.
Guest (4): [indistinct] ...man and God?
Śyāmasundara: What is the relationship between man and God?
Prabhupāda: Man is servant of God, and God is the Supreme. God is asamordhva: nobody can be equal to Him, nobody can be greater than Him. This is our point.
Guest (5): Do you believe in reincarnation?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Woman: Do you believe in reincarnation?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Just like I had my small body, then I had greater body, another body, another body. So every moment there is incarnation, reincarnation, every moment. That is medical science opinion. We are changing our bodily condition, material condition, but I am existing. Therefore, as I have passed over my childhood body to be incarnated into boyhood body, from boyhood I have reincarnated in my youthhood body. From youthhood body I reincarnated my old body. Similarly, after leaving this body I must have to accept another body. That I have already explained. Just like we change our dresses.
So soul is eternal; the body is not permanent---temporary---and there are 8,400,000's of different types of bodies. We are migrating or transmigrating from one to another. This business, if we want to stop... Because we are eternal, our aims and object should be to attain that eternal status. That we can attain by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the movement. We are giving information to everyone that "If you want your eternal life, blissful life, life of knowledge, then you take to this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you'll have it."
Guest (6): I would like to ask His Divine Grace a question, or I'd like to phrase[?] my thinking at the moment.
Śyāmasundara: Just one question. Very simple---ask it like everybody else.
Guest (6): Am I material center of the universe or is it [indistinct]? Of course, I think that I am material center of the universe, and I think I must prove it... I have been...
Prabhupāda: [to Śyāmasundara] You answer.
Guest (6): Thinking I would very much like to find that there is another spiritual center of the universe, because I am a fool, a rascal, and a liar that I found. I do not know the truth. I am a liar. [audience applauds]
Prabhupāda: What is that? Why don't you answer? What is that?
Guest (6): [indistinct] [end]