Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, Former Cabinet Minister in the Indian Government and Member of the Royal Family of Kashmir , Delhi , 1971-11-25

Dr. Singh: ...śarīra.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. [indistinct] everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs, I mean to say, they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet.

Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to Vedas. Anywhere we go, material... These people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable.

Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34], "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away.

Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the Upaniṣads, when they talk of this [indistinct]? So if you... What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam.

Dr. Singh: [indistinct Sanskrit] śarīraram.

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa.

Dr. Singh: This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya, cinmaya-śarīra we have got. In the Padma Purāṇa, the length and breadth of this cinmaya-śarīra is given: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9].

Dr. Singh: This is my wife.

Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you?

Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. [indistinct], one English friend of ours who is out..., who is...

Prabhupāda: [to lady] So why are you sitting down?

Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that,

tṛṇād api sunīcena
taror api sahiṣṇunā
amāninā mānadena
kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

[Cc. Ādi 17.31]

[indistinct] because here everyone is puffed up.

Dr. Singh: Ahaṅkāra.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. [Dr. Singh laughs] So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the Bible also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find.

Devotee: Inherit the earth.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth."

Prabhupāda: So this is..., because our puffed-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore brahma-bhūtaḥ, those who are self-realized, they are prasannātmā. Any condition of life they are happy, jolly.

Dr. Singh: Swāmījī, if Īśa is everywhere, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1], then surely He is in the body also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya [Bg. 6.17]. But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to... The body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: nature you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given [up] everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything.

Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā.

Prabhupāda: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. They simply take kṛṣṇa-prasādam. They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died.

Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright-faced.

Dr. Singh: Bright-faced.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: [Sanskrit]-mukha.

Prabhupāda: Yes, [Sanskrit]-mukha. And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in..., gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that.

Another priest, Christian priest, in New York..., in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to...

Dr. Singh: Would you have [indistinct]? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with.

Prabhupāda: One glass of water will be fine.

Dr. Singh: Only water? Only water, Swāmījī? [Hindi] We have made a truly sattvic bhojana today, so there is no problem.

Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya. [Dr. Singh laughs] Rājarṣi.

Dr. Singh: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Your generation are kṣatriya. Actually we give stress in our civilization, brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā [Bg. 9.33]. And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. [Hindi] We have lost our kṣatriyas, we have lost our...

Dr. Singh: [Sanskrit]

Prabhupāda: So actually the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms.

Dr. Singh: And also the...

Prabhupāda: And the brāhmaṇas the head.

Dr. Singh: But in the Upaniṣads, as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember?

Indian man: Fourth Chapter of Gītā [indistinct]. Fourth Chapter of Gītā [indistinct]. The knowledge is being handed over.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Handed down.

Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect.

Dr. Singh: Sretaketu[?] also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.

Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine.

Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual.

But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13].

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma and the śūdra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.

Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.

Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ[?].

Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ[?] platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena ya sevate
sa guṇān samatītya etān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

So two sides we are trying to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible.

Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brāhmaṇa. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇḍāla.

Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have..., he's got to have his..., he's got to have knowledge of the dharma. He's got to have the capacity to act...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: ...of the kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and [indistinct], for example, and service.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if you are a kṣatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally hard, I can assure you. [laughs] We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupāda: Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there..., someone must be there manager. So this division of the society...

Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head.

Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī...

Prabhupāda: That is wanted.

Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be brāhmaṇa or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśa is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. You remain kṣatriya, you remain brāhmaṇa, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted.

Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya. He was a fighter; he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was..., he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham [Bg. 2.7], "Now I am puzzled, I do not..., I am..." Yes. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.

Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So he remained a kṣatriya. But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3]. So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.

Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by connecting.

Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. So we are parts and... If we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.

Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma.

Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body... Suppose I want to scratch here; a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.

Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?

Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take..., just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.

Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the definition of bhakti. Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ, that is bhakti. Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he has to have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?

Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification... Love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly in the same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification?

Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]: when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated: "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are?

Dr. Singh: [Sanskrit] śivo 'ham, śivo....

Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty?

Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life: "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am śivo 'ham, or brahmāsmi, or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. Tat-paratvena nirmalam.

When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti. So therefore bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti, and this is spiritual platform.

So far the material platform is concerned, then there is already division: an intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all, everyone, is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I'll not interested. We are interested in different thing.

So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of man, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up.

Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or [indistinct]. He has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore that is required.

Tejaḥ. First these administrators must be tejasī, īśvara bhava[?]. Dana. [indistinct] palāyana. Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch, and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya. The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained, as in business we give training.

Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brāhmaṇas, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there; simply the training is not there. Therefore there is chaos.

Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there.

Prabhupāda: No, not so.

Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Singh: If you read [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed.

Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It was recorded. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world... Because India, or Bhārata-varṣa, means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut.

This planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata... You know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this [indistinct]. Then gradually... Why? The culture was lost.

The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he began, "With this sword I shall kill you."

So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā. Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem?

[break] These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture.

Just like Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo śūdrā tathā vaiśyās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

[Bg. 9.32]

Another, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ
ye 'nye ca pāpā [yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ]
śudhyanti prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ

We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore we created all these things. Whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ: "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he can come to Me. "That, what is not the duty of those who are elevated as brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya, to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

But that we did not do. We simply hated. When, during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the [indistinct] and put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Now, whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only...

Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world?

Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united?

Dr. Singh: But why should one teach the world to become united [indistinct] with Kṛṣṇa [indistinct]?

Prabhupāda: To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ [Bg. 6.22]. Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa [indistinct]."

Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later.

Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after?

Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first [indistinct], so what is the first priority?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Singh: First priority is to try...

[break] ...function.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you.

Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brāhmaṇa class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is an intelligent class of men?

Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is working.

Dr. Singh: They can be very good worker.

Prabhupāda: When your brain... Brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.

Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.

Dr. Singh: They can fight also.

Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain.

Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class.

So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19].

That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. Ya eṣāṁ ātma-bhuvam īśvaram na bhajanty abhijānanti sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 11.5.3] Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone. Sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ.

Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy?

Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. It is a material... That spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the Bhagavad-gītā, that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Singh: Whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it, [indistinct] you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought.

Prabhupāda: Everything was done by Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Singh: When He went as Addhutta[?]. That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it...

Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin [Bg. 11.33]. So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative.

Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Arjuna.


Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Dr. Singh: This one? Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture.

Śyāmasundara: Your secretary gave it to us.

Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books.

Prabhupāda: So some of the points... What was the points?

Śyāmasundara: That every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we are doing.

Dr. Singh: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brāhmaṇas only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brāhmaṇas.

Dr. Singh: All brāhmaṇas [indistinct]. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Is it not? Now we are creating brāhmaṇas from America, from Australia. Is it not re-creation of [indistinct]?

Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism.

Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation.

Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas—especially brāhmaṇas—from every community.

Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kīrtana tonight? What is the program, or do we...

Śyāmasundara: As you wish.

Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, kīrtana.

Dr. Singh: Before dinner, before food.

Prabhupāda: So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement.

Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift. [Sanskrit]

Prabhupāda: Yes. We can answer any philosophy.

Devotee: We have a...

Prabhupāda: Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ, kecit... There is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Just like there is fog; if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way...

Dr. Singh: Anti-pollution.

Prabhupāda: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal.

[aside:] All right, have some kīrtana.

I think in 1925 I went to Kashmir.

Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: What is your birthday?

Dr. Singh: '31, 1931.

Prabhupāda: And your father's?

Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away.

Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896.

Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? [to Mālatī:] What do you want? A piece of paper?

Devotee: She wants to write the words of the mantra on a piece of paper.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa?

[indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words] Write. Write. Give her. [break]

Mālatī: [much tape distortion] ...photographs from India of the actual [indistinct].

Dr. Singh: ...Harrison. So our devotees, they [indistinct] that singer of the Beatles.

Prabhupāda: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars.

Dr. Singh: Did he?

Prabhupāda: [indistinct]

Dr. Singh: [indistinct] "Words from Apple."

Prabhupāda: Apple [indistinct] Śyāmasundara. [indistinct] find out.

Dr. Singh: [indistinct] [reading] "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, [Hindi], Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti?

Mālatī: No, she's on her way.

Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī."

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] All of them work for this movement.

Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure.

Śyāmasundara: In the beginning of this chapter [indistinct] you talked about men who lead [indistinct].

Dr. Singh: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. That is [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: That is scientific. Our [indistinct] has gone to hell. How the people will come to [indistinct]? They don't care for God. Godless existence. [indistinct] try to be [indistinct].

Dr. Singh: [indistinct] difficult to do, but in one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: I said that our government should give me facility for [indistinct].

Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha.

Prabhupāda: So why not tell what I have done? What fault I have?

Dr. Singh: Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India.

Prabhupāda: Does he move better than me or less?

Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time; he's based in India.

Prabhupāda: Because he has no followers. [laughter] Nobody will give him place. I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses.

Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses.

Prabhupāda: So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified?

Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it?

Prabhupāda: Not a single farthing. Why this...

Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress.

Prabhupāda: Rather, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away."

Dr. Singh: Do they say that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know, but that is the minor point. Immediately that [indistinct] said... What is that? "No foreigner can stay there"?

Śyāmasundara: In Nadia.

Prabhupāda: Nadia. I do not know whether it is [indistinct]. So we are being indirectly disturbed.

Dr. Singh: That must be because there's more trouble there, and the foreigners [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: But why must they... The government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. They are so unfortunate.

Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets. [laughs] They are always respected more abroad.

Mālatī: But the point is, we are..., he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country.

Prabhupāda: Recently one paper has remarked that "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that.

Dr. Singh: Here?

Prabhupāda: No. Where it is?

Mālatī: Boston.

Prabhupāda: Boston. Also in Buffalo.

Mālatī: Buffalo, yes.

Śyāmasundara: He was speaking in reference to the Pope. The Pope didn't acknowledge your letter to him.

Dr. Singh: Did it or did?

Śyāmasundara: Did not.

Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? [laughs]

Prabhupāda: I may not think... [indistinct] I wanted to see. He is the head of a very great religion, so I want [indistinct] cooperation, I offered my cooperation [indistinct]. So I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age [indistinct] and everything. Handicap. Still I am...

Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples?

Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians.

Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from...

Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside."

Dr. Singh: That is the... You're quite right, that is what the...

Prabhupāda: They have learned everything.

Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not?

Prabhupāda: Sab janta Lawrence. In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence...

Dr. Singh: [laughs] Sab janta Lawrence

Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence.

Dr. Singh: [still laughing] That is true. Here everybody is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa [Hindi]. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why [indistinct] Europe.

Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly.

Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are mūḍhas. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Mūḍha, they are rascals.

Dr. Singh: [Sanskrit] That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian woman [Mrs. Singh?]: See these two little things standing here.

Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back. Guru-dakṣiṇā. The guru asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can..." "Oh, yes." Guru-dakṣiṇā. That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master.

Malatī: Sāndīpani Muni has...

Dr. Singh: Sāndīpani.

Malatī: He had sons?

Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife...

Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give guru-dakṣiṇā. Whatever he wants, you must give.

Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.

Prabhupāda: That "Give your finger just to keep the [indistinct]."

Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya. That is very unfair. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that "He is a śūdra. He'll miss it."

Dr. Singh: So therefore he...

Prabhupāda: [indistinct]

Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like śūdra. In Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for [indistinct], simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajña.

Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, what is called, Viśvadeva[?], the śūdras should be given money so they can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. [Bengali] The monkey is decorated with pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī.

Dr. Singh: [laughs] He did it.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] gave, "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, [Bengali]. [Bengali], the cultivator, what does he know about the taste of liquor? These are very instructive.

Śyāmasundara: The cultivator?

Prabhupāda: Cultivator. [indistinct]

Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor.

Prabhupāda: If you give him a bottle of John Walker...

Dr. Singh: [laughs] Johnnie.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Johnnie Walker? "What is it?"

English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am used to everything. [laughter]

Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker..."?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were [indistinct]. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa:

prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā
śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā
etāvaj janma-sāphalyaṁ
dehinām iha dehiṣu

That is perfection. For Kṛṣṇa. Dedicate life for Kṛṣṇa. So, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ [SB 10.14.3]: keep in your position, but serve for Kṛṣṇa. That Mr. Pante is also very nice boy.

Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much..., he does sūrya-namaskāra and things of that nature.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot.

Dr. Singh: Why can he not?

Prabhupāda: I do not know.

Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, give us some place in London.

Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely.

Śyāmasundara: That letter, which address did you send that to?

Dr. Singh: I don't really know, but I've sent it. When are you going? Who is going? None of you are going.

Śyāmasundara: We're not going. I was thinking, though, if you have a carbon copy, we could send it to my Godbrothers who are going to meet with him.

Dr. Singh: Today is already the 26th..., 25th..., 26th. What is it today?

Gurudāsa: Tomorrow's the 26th.

Śyāmasundara: The meeting's on the 30th.

Dr. Singh: It will never get there. It will take [indistinct].

English woman: Sometimes the letters only take three days. Sometimes they take a week.

Malatī: Five days or a week.

Prabhupāda: Generally takes three days by aeroplane.

Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London.

Prabhupāda: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans.

Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night.

Dr. Singh: You have a temple?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, a very big temple.

Mālatī: But it's not... Every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere. [others talking—indistinct] And They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny.

Prabhupāda: Next time when you go to London...

Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center.

Śyāmasundara: Every city.

Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: And our men are [indistinct]. Actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The [indistinct].

Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now?

Prabhupāda: At least three months.

Dr. Singh: Three months.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [indistinct]

Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come [indistinct]?

Prabhupāda: No. I came last year [indistinct].

Gurudāsa: Seventy.

Dr. Singh: Seventy.

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] so I went back again to Los Angeles in [indistinct], in June.

Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles.

Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow.

Dr. Singh: [indistinct] the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square.

Śyāmasundara: Ratha-yātrā, saṅkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: You have been in Moscow?

Dr. Singh: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I was staying in that National Hotel.

Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was [indistinct]?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. [laughter]

I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that... [break] [end]