Lecture at Śrī Kṛṣṇa-niketana , Gorakphur , 1971-02-16

Haṁsadūta: Morning lecture, recorded on the morning of February 16, 1971, at Śrī Kṛṣṇa-niketana, Gorakhpur, Uttar Pradesh. [break]

Prabhupāda: In this connection, the comments of Śrīdhara Swami is very important. He is putting question, nānu sakṛd ucaritena nāmābhyasena kathāṁ sarva-pāpa-kṣayaṁ syāt, śraddhā-bhakty-avṛtyad eva adityader api vidhānāḥ. Śrīdhara Swami says that simply by chanting without any regulative principles, one becomes liberated. So how is that? So he replies himself also, "No, there are regulative principles."

The idea is that chanting of the holy name is so powerful that it can immediately liberate the vibrator. But because he is prone to fall down again, therefore there are regulative principles. Or in other words, if one is liberated simply by chanting once, offenseless, holy name, what to speak of others who are following the regulative principles. This is the idea.

It is not that... Just like the sahajiyās. They think that "If chanting is so powerful, I shall chant sometimes." But he does not know that after chanting, he is again falling down by willingly. This is willing, I mean to say, willful disobedience. Willful disobedience. Because I know that "I have chanted the holy name. Now my all sinful reaction of my life is now vanished. Then why shall I commit again sinful activities?" That is the natural conclusion.

But if one concludes like this: "Now I have chanted, I have confessed my sinful activities in the church. Let me go now again, begin my sinful activities," such kind of willful negligence is very, very dangerous. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ [Padma Purāṇa, Brahma-kaṇḍha 25.16].

He's the greatest sinner, one who utilizes the holy name as a means of counteracting or neutralizing the sinful effects. They are very willful sinners. That should not be done. It is a fact that as soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, your all sinful reaction of life is immediately neutralized or vanquished. But you should not do again. That is the idea.

Nānu sakṛd ucaritena nāmābhyasena kathāṁ sarva-pāpa-kṣayaḥ syāt, śraddhā-bhakty-avṛtyād eva vidhānaḥ. Tathā hi, sāyaṁ prātar gṛṇan bhaktyā duḥkha-grāmād vimucyate. He's giving quotation from many scriptures, in which it is stated, sāyaṁ prātar gṛṇan... Sāyaṁ tri-sandhya: morning, noon and evening, prātar gṛṇan, daily chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Sāyaṁ prātar gṛṇan bhaktyā, with devotion and faith, duḥkha-grāmād vimucyate. Duḥkha-grāmād means volumes of miserable condition of life. One can avoid volumes of miserable condition of life simply by chanting.

Anudinam idam ādareṇa śṛṇvan iti. When it is stated anudinam ādareṇa, with great care and attention one should chant. Not that we should utilize the chanting of holy name for my sense gratification, that "I commit sin, and again I chant, and it will be counteracted. So again I chant, again I commit." No. That is not allowed. Anudinam. Śrīdhara Swami... Anudinam idam ādareṇa śṛṇvanti.

Or śṛṇvan ādareṇa, with great care. Because the name, the holy name, and the person Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name—they are identical. So one should be so much careful and, I mean to say, respectful, that as soon as you are chanting, you should know that "Kṛṣṇa is dancing on my tongue." Therefore how much careful and respectful we should be. It is very responsible[?].

Suppose Kṛṣṇa is here... Just like we offer so respectful obeisances to the Deity. Similarly, as the Deity is arca-avatāra, incarnation... This Deity which you are worshiping as the arca-avatāra, arcā means worshipable incarnation. Because we cannot see Kṛṣṇa with our present eyes, material eyes, therefore it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He has appeared before us in a form which we can see. That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. It is not that Kṛṣṇa is different from this Deity. That is mistake. Those who cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa's potency, they think that this is idol, and therefore they say "Idol worship." It is not idol worship.

The same example, as I have given many times, that the postbox, or mailbox on the street, it is post office. If somebody thinks, "It is a box..." It is a box, but it is a post office at the same time. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everything. The bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ kham... [Bg. 7.4]. Kṛṣṇa says that "My energy." As you cannot separate energy and the energetic, Kṛṣṇa is everything.

So Kṛṣṇa can accept your service through everything. Don't consider that "This is metal." The metal is also Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should know, bhūmi..., bhūmi... Metal, what is metal? Metal means earth. Kṛṣṇa says, first of all says, bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ: "They are My all energies."

So from argument's point of view, Kṛṣṇa is everything. Therefore Kṛṣṇa can accept service through everything. So this Deity, vigraha, either made of wood, made of stone or earth or metal or painting, they are not different from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has got the potency to accept your service through this medium. So they are not pictures or they are not ordinary idols. You should never...

Similarly, a sound vibration. Kṛṣṇa is present through sound vibration because the five elements, ākāśa, the sky... Sky, within sky, there is sound. So from argumentative point of view also, nobody can deny that this chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is not identical. It is identical.

Because identical... Everything is identical. So as soon as you approach the Deity or the name, you should know fully well that Kṛṣṇa is present. Kṛṣṇa is... Therefore we should worship the Deity with great attention, as much as Kṛṣṇa is present. And similarly, we should worship the holy name with great attention. We should not be inattentive.

Suppose Kṛṣṇa personally comes—personally He is here—suppose personally, as you think of personally, personally comes. If you do not become respectful, is that all right? No. You should be very much respectful. Even a respectable person, ordinary person, a big man or a rich man or a king comes, we become so much respectful. And what about Kṛṣṇa when He's present as arcā-mūrti or as the holy name?

These are the realization point of view: Kṛṣṇa, His name, His form, His quality, His pastimes... When you hear about Kṛṣṇa, that is also Kṛṣṇa. Actually, when you are reading Kṛṣṇa book, Kṛṣṇa is fighting with demons, that is also His pastime. So Kṛṣṇa is present. So you should be very attentive and worship this hearing. Unless we come to this point, there is lack of realization what is Kṛṣṇa.

Anudinam ādareṇa śṛṇvan iti śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ dhyānaṁ harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. Here also, explicitly mentioned, harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa's activities are all wonderful. As you read from the Kṛṣṇa book, He is fighting with many demons, and His activities are wonderful. Just like Kāliya-damana. A boy of five years old or six years old jumping in the Yamunā, and the great snake immediately coils Him, as if it will devour Kṛṣṇa. And from the shore, all the members of Vṛndāvana, they become fainted: "Now Kṛṣṇa is gone." But He was fighting with him and kicking on the head, and blood was oozing out from the mouth of the serpent.

So these things are wonderful things—Bakāsura, Aghāsura, Śiśupāla, Kaṁsa. Kṛṣṇa was boy of sixteen years old when He was combating a very powerful wrestler, Cāṇūra. Everything... Everyone present, they thought it unlawful, that "Kṛṣṇa is so young, and such a big stalwart and strong wrestler is engaged with Him for wrestling. This is not good. This is not good." In protest, so many people left the arena. And Nanda Mahārāja began to think, "I should have locked up Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana instead of allowing Him to come here. Oh, so much injustice." But Kṛṣṇa killed them. Not only killed them, the wrestlers who were engaged by Kaṁsa; He immediately dragged Kaṁsa from his throne and simply by fisting He killed him.

There are so many wonderful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's activities are called adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. It is never expected to be done by any human being. How it can be done by a human being? He's all-powerful. He can do anything and everything. And because the persons with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore these Kṛṣṇa's activities are to them as allegories or mythology. Because they are rascals, they think it is mythology. It is not mythology. It is actual fact, but they are wonderful, because it is being enacted by Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore it is stated here, harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ, janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca tad-arthe akhila-ceṣṭitam ity adi asmin eva purāṇe tatra tatra pathyate. Janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca. Hearing about Kṛṣṇa, about Kṛṣṇa's appearance, His so-called janma... Janma means birth. So Kṛṣṇa is unborn. He is nityo nityānām. He's... Just like we have no janma, we have no appearance. It is simply change of dress. It is not death. As it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]—if I change my dress, that is not my death.

This is easily understood. Similarly, transmigration of the soul from one body to another, that is not death. But because we have no eyes to see the soul, how it is changing from one body... Just like we cannot see how the baby is coming to another body, childhood, boyhood. We cannot see. We see that the body is changing. No. He's changing from one body to another. That is the version of the Bhagavad-gītā. But we say that body's growing. Why body's growing? If the body has got any growing power, then why the body of a dead child does not grow? The body has no growing power. It is actually changed.

But because... Just like in the spool of your film, there are many pictures. But because you see under certain condition, you see one picture. It is very easy to understand. Actually, the pictures are changing, different pictures, and we are seeing one picture. We are seeing the picture is moving in one picture. Similarly, this body is continuously, every moment, there is different body, different body, different body, every moment, but we are seeing one body. This is our ignorance. But we are changing body. Every moment we are changing body. The spool is going on.

The exact example is that, like that, the film. Every second, changing one picture, one picture, one picture, one picture. And it appears that it is only one picture. One who does not know how the machine, cinematographic machine, is working—the foolish persons—they say, they think that the picture is one and it is moving. No. It is changing. Similarly, the body is also changing. The exact example is changing of dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. That is the exact word used in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So even for an ordinary living being, we cannot see how the body is changing, how the living entity is changing from body to another. It is so swiftly, every moment, every second, it is taking place. How you can see? So there is no death; it is simply changing.

So if for ordinary living entity there is no death, how Kṛṣṇa can be appearing and dying? No. Therefore, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. One who knows in truth how Kṛṣṇa is appearing, how Kṛṣṇa is disappearing, he is learned. He is learned in the spiritual science, and for him, as soon as he becomes learned, well versed in the spiritual science, Kṛṣṇa science, he immediately becomes liberated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirms, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. Because one who has understood Kṛṣṇa in truth, he is liberated person. Therefore he is guru.

Guru cannot be a conditioned soul. Guru must be liberated. Because without complete knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, without being free from the contamination of the three modes of material nature... One cannot understand Kṛṣṇa on account of his being engrossed with these three material modes of nature. And Kṛṣṇa says, "One who understand Me rightly, he becomes immediately free." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Just like we are changing our dress or our different bodies every moment, so Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā deham.

The last change, last change... Ordinarily, those who are not liberated, those who are conditioned still, they die. Die means they change this body and accept another material body. Another material body. But one who is liberated by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he also changes his body and he accepts immediately a spiritual body. And so long he lives, that is also spiritual body. That is spiritual body in the [this] sense, because that body is engaged in spiritual activities only. There is no material activity; therefore that is spiritual.

The same example: the iron rod, although it is rod, because it has become red hot, it is no longer rod; it is fire. Similarly, this material body becomes spiritualized when one is completely Kṛṣṇa conscious, because he has no more activity of this material body. His actions are... The same example, try to follow. When it has become so hot, red hot, that it is no more acting as iron rod, it is acting as fire, similarly, and when he changes this body also, he immediately... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Then he does not come in material body. Immediately, a spiritual body develops.

As this material body has developed from the spirit soul, on the platform of spirit soul, similarly, what is the difficulty to understand a spiritual body can also grow? There is no difficulty. So our this material body, everyone knows that it grows or it changes from one body to another because the spirit soul is there. Similarly, one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, as it is said by Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā deham: as soon as this body is given up, immediately, another, spiritual body is offered.

That spiritual body... Sanātana Gosvāmī has said that those who are being liberated from this material world, they are offered a spiritual body where Kṛṣṇa-līlā is going on. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Vṛndāvana-līlā, or as Kṛṣṇa manifested His different pastimes when He was present, that is going on eternally. As soon as He leaves this universe, in another universe His līlā becomes manifest. Kṛṣṇa is born... Kṛṣṇa is born here at Janmāṣṭamī, and as soon as Kṛṣṇa is taken to Gokula by Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa is seen in another universe, born again.

Just like our sun. As soon as it rises at six o'clock or, say, five o'clock... So as soon as here five o'clock finished, in another place five o'clock begins. But it is going on. Ananta-cakra. The five o'clock is permanent. Anywhere, there must be some five o'clock. Anywhere, there must be six o'clock. Anywhere, there must be seven o'clock. Just like the twenty-four hours is going on.

You cannot say that the sun's rising at five o'clock, because it is finished within your view, it is finished. No. It is not like that. The five o'clock is permanent to the sun. If it is so possible to a material thing, why not Kṛṣṇa? Therefore it is called nitya-līlā. Nitya-līlā means eternally Janmāṣṭamī is going on. Eternally everything is going on, eternally.

So one who is liberated from this world and he is given the spiritual body, he's immediately transferred to the place where Kṛṣṇa's līlā is going on. Just like in Vṛndāvana, when Kṛṣṇa was present, all the Vṛndāvana-vāsīs, they were not ordinary men; they were liberated. They transferred to associate with Kṛṣṇa, practice.

And after this complete practice, they were transferred to the Goloka Vṛndāvana. So therefore Śukadeva Gosvāmī says about the boys, cowherd boys, playing with Kṛṣṇa, kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ: "Oh, how much these boys have accumulated their pious activities! Now they are transferred here to play with Kṛṣṇa." Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ.

itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā
dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena
māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa
sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ

[SB 10.12.11]

"Oh, these boys, it appears that they are cowherd boys playing with Kṛṣṇa," appreciating, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. "Oh, how much they have accumulated their pious activities so that now they have got chance to play with Kṛṣṇa personally!" They are not ordinary cowherd boys.

So similarly, all the gopīs, all the cowherd boys, they are not ordinary men. They're given chance after many, many births' accumulating the devotional service. Devotional service so nice. In one life they can be benefited with that position as cowherds boy, as he likes—as friend, as gopīs. That is possible. Therefore, the devotees are so much austere, so much, I mean to say, penanceful, that "This life we shall attain this position." One is hoping to be Kṛṣṇa's friend, one is hoping to be gopī, one is hoping to be friends of Yaśodā. So everything is possible, pañca-rasa, the five rasas in Vṛndāvana. One is hoping to be a tree there, a grass there, a flower there.

So this is possible. So... And Kṛṣṇa says, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ mad-yājino... [Bg. 9.25]. "Those who are cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they come to Me. They come to Me." So where is the difficulty to understand the whole philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It is very simple. Everything is there. We have to understand, and we have to be very serious and sincere. The thing is there.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Devotee (1): During the time when the living entity is transferred from one body to another, is he always fully conscious of the subtle facts?

Prabhupāda: Are you not conscious of your childhood?

Devotee (1): Am I conscious of... My body's being constantly changing?

Prabhupāda: You are conscious, but you do not perceive it.

Devotee (1): Can the living entity perceive the situation at this time, when he's being transferred from one body to another?

Prabhupāda: So why you are thinking... Are you not assured that you are not transferred? You are not sure?

Devotee (1): I'm not sure?

Prabhupāda: When there is practically it is happening, what is the reason of your being doubtful?

Devotee (1): There's no doubtful. It's just here. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: So many things happening in your body; are you aware of all these things?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then, similarly, it is happening. Why do you ask such question? So many things are happening in your body. You do not know how it is happening. Therefore it is called prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. The nature is doing. You are completely in the hands of the nature. How, after shaving, how your hairs are growing, do you know?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then? It is completely under the hands of the nature. Similarly, everything is. As you cannot explain, cannot know how the hairs are growing, similarly, you cannot understand how you are changing. It is, by nature, it is being done so nicely. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala... [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. It is taking place. A flower is fructified.

Can you explain how it is fructified? It is taking place. The foolish persons, they say "Automatically." No. The machine is so expert that it is taking... The machine is working. The nature is working, but we are not so expert to understand. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. We are thinking it is taking automatically. No. It is not. It is taking very perfectly, and we are so ignorant that we cannot understand.

We should always know our position, how much we are ignorant. I am claiming I am the... "It is my body." How your nails are growing, can you explain? Why there is no sensation in the nail? So many things you are unaware, even of your body. So how you can be aware that how your body is changing? You have to learn, therefore, from authorities, "It is being done." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra... [Bg. 2.13]. That is the process of knowledge. You have to know from the authorities how things are there. The person who is actually enacting, you have to know from Him. Otherwise, there is no possibility of knowledge.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
kartāham iti manyate

Prakṛti... You are walking, you are walking, and immediately you become paralyzed. But while walking you think, "I am walking. I am walking." You are not walking. You are walking under some mechanical arrangement with the help of the material nature, but you are thinking, "I am walking." In every step, in every action, you are completely dependent. Don't you think that "I am walking"? Now when there is some trouble or if the hands or leg become paralyzed, now if you are walking, then you repair it.

Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Why don't you read this Bhagavad-gītā?

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

What is the meaning of this? Eh? Yantrārūḍhāni. Just like you are sitting on a carriage, and the driver is taking you anywhere he likes. You are just like that. There is no control how you are being taken. Yantrārūḍhāni. Yantra means just like carriage, a machine. You are sitting on a machine, and under the direction of the Lord, Īśvara... He is sitting in your heart. So māyā is driver, and Kṛṣṇa is dictating,

"Drive this person in such-and-such body," and māyā is there, offering the body. Kṛṣṇa is seeing you, that you are doing, you require such-and-such body, and He's ordering māyā that "You give him such-and-such body." So māyā is offering you. You are simply under the control. You are simply thinking, "I shall do that, I shall do that," and everything is there by Kṛṣṇa's order. So you think of Kṛṣṇa; then Kṛṣṇa will give you another body, spiritual body.

Devotee (2): Every moment we are changing our body.

Prabhupāda: That is, the medical science says. Even medical science, they say the blood corpuscles are changing.

Devotee (2): But we don't feel it so much. So what happens...

Prabhupāda: You don't feel so many things. That I have explained. That does not mean it is not taking place.

Devotee (2): No, I want to say, like at the point of death we are also changing to another body. Do we feel that then? At the point of death...

Prabhupāda: That I explained. You don't feel, even the change takes place. Yes.

Devotee (2): Even in death...

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, you said that at the time of death, if one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's given a spiritual body. Is the spiritual body... You said it has been created. Originally, we had a spiritual body, and then we fell under the...

Prabhupāda: I don't say created. It develops.

Devotee (3): Oh. It's the same one that was an eternal body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As the material body has developed for your material consciousness, similarly, spiritual body will develop for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Devotee (3): And it's the same spiritual body that we had before we came into the material world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are one ten-thousandth part of the point. How this big body has developed? It has developed materially. Similarly, it will develop spiritually. What is the difficulty to understand? Is there any difficulty still?

Devotee (3): No.

Prabhupāda: You are one ten-thousandth part of a point, and you have developed a big body like elephant. [laughter] Or Brahmānanda Swami. [laughter] [chuckles] When he was getting fat, I was very much thinking that "This boy is getting fat." To get fatty is not very favorable for spiritual understanding. My Guru Mahārāja said.

If you'd say some disciple is getting fat, he'll immediately say, "Oh, he is getting fat?" Yes. Spiritual life does not mean very fat. That is an impediment. That means materially he's becoming developed. [laughter] That's a fact. So we should not eat more to get fat. You should simply eat to keep yourself [chuckling] body and soul together. Not to get fatty. No. That's not good. Of course, we are not fatty.

Devotee: You told us about that Bhāratī Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāratī Mahārāja. [chuckles]

Yamunā: What was that?

Prabhupāda: My Godbrother, there was one Bhāratī Mahārāja. He was... [laughter] So Prabhupāda used to criticize, "Oh, this man is getting fatty." And actually, he was not very... [chuckles]

[pause] Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. You have to take shelter; therefore you are marginal. You have to take shelter of the material energy or the spiritual energy. When you take shelter of the material energy, you materially develop. When you take spiritual energy, you spiritually develop. That's all.

Therefore your position is marginal. Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. Mahātmā, those who are mahātmās, they have given up. The Māyāvādī philosopher thinks that as soon as he has given up, liberated from the matter, now he has become God. No. You give up this material energy, you have to take up spiritual energy. Mahāmāyā, yogamāyā. Yes?

Devotee: I've experienced that the more we know about these different processes, when we speak them, the people are impressed that we are understanding scientifically. So sometimes we ask a question, it is not so much out of doubt, but we just want to understand that process.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That should be. Yes. That is good. Paripraśnena. Tad viddhi paripraśnena, praṇipātena, and sevayā. The questions should be put, guided by two principles: surrender and service. That is the way.

All right. [end]