Room Conversation , London , 1969-09-24

Prabhupāda: ...and when the call is there, they throw it, everything, and go away. Similarly, this material world, the activities of the material world is like that. Somewhere digging and somewhere piling. Somebody is independent and somebody is dependent. Somebody is very luxurious, somebody's starving. So there cannot be any adjustment. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15].

[After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.]

We are digging somewhere and piling somewhere; so digging is also labor, and piling is also labor. Then, after finishing, you have to quit everything, digging and piling. So why people do not come to their senses that "What we are doing? Are we utilizing our time properly or wasting our time?" What should be answer? If I asked these karmīs, "Why you are digging? Why you are piling? And why you are leaving?" Then what will be the answer?

[pause] Can you say what will be the answer?

Guest (1) [Indian man]: When digging the pile?

Prabhupāda: You are digging somewhere, and again make constructing somewhere, and then, after a time, you are leaving both and going away, shifting for another activity. Because you'll not be allowed to stay...

Guest (1): The same place.

Prabhupāda: ...same place. By nature's law you'll have to quit.

Guest (1): Quit.

Prabhupāda: Just like... What to speak of ordinary man. President Kennedy. Oh, how much labor he had to undergo to occupy that post, how much money he spent to become president. But he had to quit his family, his wife, his state, his post. So this is going on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19].

[Again and again the day comes, and this host of beings is active; and again the night falls, O Pārtha, and they are helplessly dissolved.]

For sometimes we are engaged in this way; then again we are annihilated.

Again begin another life, enter into another mother's womb, construct another body, then come out, then again begin work, again the same thing, digging and piling, digging and piling, again going away. Is that very good business? This is the karmīs. Karmīs means worker, fruitive worker. They want some result for their work. Their are called karmīs. So the karmīs are engaged in this way. [doorbell rings]

In Bhagavad-gītā these karmīs have been described as rascals, mūḍha. Mūḍha. Because they do not know why they are digging, why they are piling and why they are leaving again everything. You can sit little, in the corner. I, I... Ask these boys, yes. This is the problem. The whole world is engaged very busy. Any city you go, they're very busy. The motor car is going this way, that way, and everywhere is constructing and so many things are going on. But if you put this question, "Why you are doing this business, digging somewhere and piling somewhere, again leaving the whole thing?"...

[Aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

They have no answer.

Guest (1): They might say it's a rotation. They just have to do it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (1): Do some work.

Prabhupāda: But do you like to do that? Suppose you are making very nice arrangement in this apartment to live. And again, after, say, one hour you are asked, "Now quit this place." So are you not disgusted?

Guest (1): Yes, I am interested.

Prabhupāda: So why this point is not coming? This is ignorance. Just like animals, they do not know why they are laboring so hard. Just an ass. An ass is piled with cloth, you know? In your India. But whose cloth, why he's so much bearing burden? For a little grass only? That he does not know. Therefore he's called ass. Ass is working so hard, but he's not, he does not know if the cloth does not belong to him, but he's piled up with...

[Aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

...tons of cloth and he's bearing. He's bearing. Therefore they have been... These karmīs who do not know for whom he's working, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūḍha. Mūḍha means ass. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhaḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam aśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

These things are there; in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find. Where from you are coming?

Gurudāsa: Bury Place.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. So now people do not wish to consider also this point, that "If I am eternal, if I am changing my place, my dress, my occupation every fifty years or ten years or twelve years according to the dress..." The cats and dogs, they live for ten years. The cows live for twenty years, and the man lives for, say, hundred years. Trees lives for thousands years. But everyone has to change. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22].

[As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.]

As we have to change our old dress, similarly, this body has to be changed. And we are changing. Changing every moment. That is a fact.

This boy will grow also some day like you, like me. This body will not stay. I had a body like this, say, fifty years ago or sixty years ago, but that body is now missing. I have got a different body. So everyone is changing body in this way. We do not know where that body gone, but ultimately also, we shall change, and we shall enter another body, and again we have to begin new set of work, leaving all aside. Suppose this life I was President Kennedy; next life, even if I am born in America next door to President Kennedy's house, nobody will recognize me that "Here is your property. Come on. Enjoy." No. Property's gone.

Again he has to make another property. This is going on. So the people do not think that "What I am doing? What I have gained? What is my ultimate aim of life?" This is missing. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍha duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam aśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

People are not very serious. They're so much in ignorance that they: "All right, let it happen, whatever may happen. We may enjoy life." But this is not very good position. One should be, at least in human form of life, one should be very sober, considerate [of] what is happening.

So out of many fruitive workers like this, one becomes wise: "Why I am doing this?" This is wisdom. That is the platform of knowledge, to inquire that "What is my position? What I am? What is my aim of life?" That is the position of the jṇānī, persons who are wise. And one, when one is fully wise, then bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], after many, many births, when one becomes fully wise, bahunam janmanam ante jñānavān, when he's actually wise, jñānavān, then māṁ prapadyate, Kṛṣṇa says, "He comes and surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything.

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. But such person, such great soul, is very rare. Generally people are mūḍhas. So from mūḍhas we have to be elevated to the position of mahātmā. So mahātmā... And who is mahātmā? That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

Mahātmās, those who are great souls, they are not under the spell of this material energy. They are not attracted by these activities of piling and digging and leaving. They are interested with Kṛṣṇa, Vasudeva.

That is mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg. 9.13]. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ. Bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. Their only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is the highest perfection of life. If one is engaged in the business of satisfying Kṛṣṇa instead of satisfying himself... Most people, they are engaged in satisfying themselves. Everyone in this material world. The so-called politicians, they promise that "I shall give you so many things." But actually, he is trying to occupy the post for his satisfaction. These are all false promises. Why politicians? Even in our family life we maintain wife, children. Why? For my satisfaction.

As soon as there is discrepancy in my satisfaction I divorce my wife. Or the wife sees that "This husband is useless." She also divorces. So everywhere, the whole material world is going on on the basis of sense satisfaction. So the sense satisfaction platform is called kāma, lust. And one has to elevate oneself from this sense satisfaction platform to the platform of satisfying Kṛṣṇa, service to Kṛṣṇa.

[Aside:] Does he mind you? [?]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to teach people how to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Yes? Any questions?

Yamunā: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yamunā: What does the śloka in Bhagavad-gītā that says, action in inaction and inaction in action...

Prabhupāda: Yes, inaction means we do not enjoy the result of your action. Jaya. Wherefrom?

Gurudāsa: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Where is the original stock? ISKCON Boston, or maybe tapes. [break] He's Kṛṣṇa. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya [Cc. Ādi 5.142].

[Lord Kṛṣṇa alone is the supreme controller, and all others are His servants. They dance as He makes them do so.]


[break] One God, Kṛṣṇa. One scripture, Bhagavad-gītā. One mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa. And one engagement, Kṛṣṇa's service. That's all. [end]