Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg , Colombus , 1969-05-13

Prabhupāda: What is called, lunatic, compact in thought. [chuckles] So Kṛṣṇa lover is also another kind of lunatic or poet. You see?

Allen Ginsberg: Except that it would mean concentrating all my consciousness on the one single image of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Not image.

Allen Ginsberg: Or the one single thought or name or feeling or awareness.

Prabhupāda: That we have got varieties of duties. Just like we are. You have seen all these boys. They are always engaged. Always engaged. Similarly, everywhere they are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa. We want extra time to work for Kṛṣṇa. The twenty-four hours is not sufficient for us. Yes. Then we shall see that we are sleeping, wasting time. Gosvāmīs, they used to sleep for one half-hour only. That also sometimes forgot.

Allen Ginsberg: To dream.

Prabhupāda: No. They were always engaged. Volumes of books they have written. When there is no writing—chanting, dancing, talking, and like that; engaged in Kṛṣṇa always. That we have been taught by our Guru Mahārāja, twenty-four hours' engagement with Kṛṣṇa. So māyā has no scope to enter in our mind. She always remains aloof: "Oh, here is fire. I cannot touch." Bhakti mukulitāñ... Bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā yadi bhagavan syād daivena phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ, muktir mukulitāñjaliḥ sevate 'smān [Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta 107].

[If I am engaged in devotional service unto You, my dear Lord, then very easily can I perceive Your presence everywhere. And as far as liberation is concerned, I think that liberation stands at my door with folded hands, waiting to serve me-and all material conveniences of dharma [religiosity], artha [economic development] and kāma [sense gratification] stand with her.]

Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, a great devotee, he executed devotional service for seven hundred years. He lived for seven hundred years in Vṛndāvana. That picture you have seen, Sūradāsa? Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Sūradāsa, the poet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is known as Sūradāsa.

Allen Ginsberg: Teacher of Tulasī Dāsa, or student of Tulasī Dāsa.

Prabhupāda: He may be different. But Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, he was also blind. He made himself blind. You know the story of Bilvamaṅgala?

Allen Ginsberg: No.

Prabhupāda: Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Kṛṣṇa. Not exactly; just previous, bhāva. It is called bhāva, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish. So according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, he was given birth to a nice brāhmaṇa family.

[aside:] You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear.

So very rich. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41], in that way.

[The unsuccessful yogī, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.]

Rich family, at the same time, brāhmaṇa family.

But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintāmaṇi. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that about that prostitute, Cintāmaṇi. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintāmaṇi, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura? Yes. So he asked his servants, "Give me some food. I shall go to Cintāmaṇi."

So anyway, he performed... Did not perform; his mind was there. He took some nice foodstuff, and when he went, there was a big river, and it was raining heavily, and the river was flooded. So he thought, "How shall I go the other side?" So one dead body was floating. So he thought, "It is a log," and he took the help of the log and went the other side. And it was heavily raining. And then, when he reached that Cintāmaṇi's home, he saw the door is locked already. Blocked.

So he jumped over the wall, taking the tail of a serpent, and when he reached inside, he knocked the door, and Cintāmaṇi was astonished: "How did you come? So heavy rain. You had to cross the river." He said everything, that "Oh, I cannot stay without you." So she was much inquisitive: "How did you come? How did you jump over this wall?" And so he showed everything, that there was a big snake, and so he thought it as rope and jumped it. And then, when he went to the riverside, he saw that was a dead body.

So at that time Cintāmaṇi thought, "Oh, this man is so much addicted to me." So she told, "Oh, this much attraction if you would have with Kṛṣṇa, oh, how nice your life would have been." So immediately he came to his senses, because he was lifted to that position in his previous life.

So immediately he left and was going alone to Vṛndāvana. And on the way he saw another beautiful woman. So his business was to be attracted by woman. So he again became attracted. So he was following. So this woman, after entering, she told her husband, "Just see, this man is following from a distant place." So he asked him, "Oh, come on." He saw he is nice gentleman. He was a rich man, brāhmaṇa. "What is this?" He said plainly, "Oh, I have been attracted by your wife, by the beauty of his wife." "All right, come on. What is that? You enjoy my wife. You are...

So he was received well. And at night, when he was given place, then he asked that woman, "Mother, will you give me your hair pin?" He took the hair pin and pushed in the eyes: "Oh, these eyes are my enemy." Since then he became blind. And in that blindness he was worshiping Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa was coming to him. And he would not touch. He'll sing, dance, and He'll supply milk and go away. So this Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura wrote one book, Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta. It is very valuable book. That is very highly estimated, Lord Caitanya.

Allen Ginsberg: What century is that?

Prabhupāda: It is since seven hundred years...

Guest (1) (Indian lady): Fourteenth century.

Prabhupāda: Yes, fourteenth century.

Allen Ginsberg: Bilda... How do you pronounce his name?

Prabhupāda: No. Fourteenth century, not Bilvamaṅgala. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, some time before.

Guest (1): Bilvamaṅgala.

Allen Ginsberg: Bilvamaṅgala. Bilvamaṅgala. No, I didn't know the name.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many poets. He was great poet. If you read this Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta poetry, ah, you'll find...

Guest (1): Vaiṣṇava, [Bengali] ...Vidyāpati, Candidāsa.

Prabhupāda: Vidyāpati, Candidāsa, Jayadeva.

Allen Ginsberg: Jayadeva, I know.

Guest (1): Jayadeva is a great Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: There are many nice poets.

Allen Ginsberg: I know some of the Baul poetry in English.

Prabhupāda: You just try to read this Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura especially.

Allen Ginsberg: Who?

Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.

Allen Ginsberg: Nartham.

Prabhupāda: There are many...

Guest (1): Narottama.

Prabhupāda: That song you were reading last night, Nitāi pada kamala? That is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song. For the Vaiṣṇava, to become poet is another qualification. Vaiṣṇava has twenty-six qualifications. I think it is written there.

Allen Ginsberg: And one of them is to become poet also.

Prabhupāda: Poet. He must be poet. All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are poet.

Guest (1): Because they are so deep in love with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Poetry comes out in deep love with something.

Allen Ginsberg: Is that published somewhere?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Arjuna just typed it up, and...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: You want to see?

Allen Ginsberg: No, don't take it down. I'll look. On my way out I'll read.

Prabhupāda: Hṛṣīkeśa, you can read loudly. We'll hear.

Hṛṣīkeśa: "Qualifications of a devotee: 1) kind to everyone, 2) does not quarrel with anyone, 3) fixed in the Absolute Truth, 4) equal to everyone, 5) faultless, 6) charitable, 7) mild, 8) clean, 9) simple, 10) benevolent, 11) peaceful, 12) completely attached to Kṛṣṇa, 13) no material hankering, 14) meek, 15) steady, 16) self-controlled, 17) does not eat more than required, 18) sane, 19) respectful..." [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Not insane.

Hṛṣīkeśa: "...20) humble, 21) grave, 22) compassionate, 23) friendly, 24) poetic, 25) expert..."

Prabhupāda: Poetic.

Hṛṣīkeśa: "...25) expert, and 26) silent."

Prabhupāda: These are the qualities.

Allen Ginsberg: Whose list is that? Is that an old list, or have you made that up for young Americans?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, these are taken from authoritative śāstras.

Guest (1): They should have to know these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the test, whether you are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious or not. You have to test yourself, whether you are developing these qualities. This is for testing.

Allen Ginsberg: I'm slowly developing all qualities except sanity. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Insanity for seeking Kṛṣṇa, that is required. Yes. Unless you become insane after Kṛṣṇa, just like Lord Caitanya became... Yes. His worship is to become insane after Kṛṣṇa.

Allen Ginsberg: Is Kabir in the Vaiṣṇava tradition?

Guest (1): He is mystic.

Allen Ginsberg: So what tradition is he in, actually?

Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist on the whole. He is impersonalist, whole, and he has got some Vaiṣṇava thought, that's all. Perverted thoughts. Perverted thoughts.

Allen Ginsberg: So who is the most perfect of the Vaiṣṇava poets? That would be Mīrā?

Guest (1): Mīrā was a devotee. She was a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee means...

Guest (1): Vaiṣṇava. She was, Mīrā, Kṛṣṇa devotee. Oh, her songs has called me.

Allen Ginsberg: Have you used her songs here at all?

Prabhupāda: Yes, in India it is very popular, Mīrā's song. Mostly they are written in Hindi, and some of them have been interpolated. But Mīrā was a devotee. She saw Rūpa Gosvāmī, a contemporary. She has written many poetry about Lord Caitanya.

Allen Ginsberg: Oh, she was a contemporary of Caitanya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Did they meet?

Prabhupāda: No. She appreciated that Lord Caitanya is Kṛṣṇa, and she has written one poetry, song, that "Now You have left aside Your flute, and You have taken the sannyāsī rod." In that way she has written nice poetry. "And where is Your hair and peacock feather? Now You are bald-headed." In this way. So Mīrā appreciated. Her life is also very excellent. Her father gave her a small Kṛṣṇa doll to play, and she developed love for Kṛṣṇa as husband. So when she was married... She was princess, daughter of king, and she was married with another prince.

Allen Ginsberg: What position does Anandamayi Ma have now?

Prabhupāda: She is also impersonalist.

Allen Ginsberg: She is impersonalist

Prabhupāda: She is not a devotee. There are many impersonalist, they take advantage of... They say, "Caitanya's patha, Śaṅkara's maṭha," that "Follow the principle of Caitanya, but ultimately take the conclusion of Śaṅkara." That means...

Allen Ginsberg: Śiva.

Prabhupāda: No. Śaṅkarācārya.

Allen Ginsberg: Aha. What was the conclusion of Śaṅkarācārya?

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya's conclusion was to defeat Buddhism. They do not know it, but actually, when there was too much animal-killing and people became almost atheist under the shadow of Vedic rituals, Lord Buddha appeared. He wanted to stop men from the sinful activities of killing unnecessarily under the plea of Vedas.

So he invented that ahiṁsa, nonviolence. And... Because people will give evidence, "Oh, in the Vedas there is..." They were not following, actually, the Vedic rituals, but just like crooked lawyers take advantage of law books, similarly... Therefore, Lord Buddha said that "I do not follow Vedic rituals. I have nothing to do with Vedas. It is my own formula."

So Jayadeva has written one prayer, because the Vaiṣṇavas can understand how God is playing. So he writes, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ [Daśāvatāra-stotra 9]

[O Keśava! O Lord of the universe! O Lord Hari, who have assumed the form of Buddha! All glories to You! With your heart full of compassion, you decry animal slaughter performed according to the scriptural rules of Vedic sacrifice.]

"My dear Lord, now You have appeared as Lord Buddha. You are decrying the Vedic rituals." Śruti-jātaṁ. Śruti-jātaṁ means Vedic. Why?

Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam: "You are so much compassionate to see poor animals being killed unnecessarily." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare: "All glories to Jagadīśa. You have now assumed the form of Lord Buddha, and You are playing in pastimes." So Lord Buddha is accepted as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. In Bhāgavata also it is stated. He is accepted as the tenth incarnation.

Allen Ginsberg: Ah. Who was nine?

Prabhupāda: Nine was Baladeva. Baladeva, Kṛṣṇa's elder brother, Balarāma.

Allen Ginsberg: Then Buddha is one possible tenth.

Prabhupāda: Not tenth. Buddha is ninth. Yes. Buddha is ninth. Baladeva is eighth. And the tenth is awaiting.

Allen Ginsberg: Kalki.

Prabhupāda: Kalki. Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Now, what is Kalki's nature?

Prabhupāda: Kalki's nature, that is described in Bhāgavata. He will come just like a prince, royal dress with sword, and on horseback; simply killing, no preaching. All rascals killed. No more preaching. [laughing] That is the last. There will be no brain to understand what is God.

Allen Ginsberg: There will be no brain to understand God?

Prabhupāda: They will be so dull, so dull. It requires brain to understand. Just like in the Bhāgavata it is said that evaṁ prasanna-manaso [SB 1.2.20]

[Thus established in the mode of unalloyed goodness, the man whose mind has been enlivened by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains positive scientific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead in the stage of liberation from all material association.]

"fully joyful," bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, "by practice of bhakti-yoga." Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ, mukta-saṅgasya: "and freed from all material contamination." He can understand God. Do you think God is so cheap thing, anyone will understand? Because they do not understand, they present something nonsense: "God is like this. God is like that. God is like that." And when God Himself comes, that "Here I am: Kṛṣṇa," they don't accept it. They'll create their own God.

Allen Ginsberg: So Kalki comes at the end of the Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: And is Kalki connected with the Kali-yuga cycle?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kalki, yes.

Allen Ginsberg: So He would come at the end of Kali-yuga to end the yuga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then Satya-yuga will begin.

Allen Ginsberg: Then what begins?

Prabhupāda: Satya-yuga.

Allen Ginsberg: Which is?

Prabhupāda: Satya-yuga, the pious. Satya-yuga. People will be pious, truthful, long-living.

Allen Ginsberg: Are those people that remain, or whatever new creation comes out of the destruction?

Prabhupāda: Some of them will remain, some of them. It will not completely extinguish. Some of them will remain, pious. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8].

[In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.]

All miscreants will be killed, and out of them, there must be some pious... They remain.

Allen Ginsberg: Do you think of this in terms of a historical event that will occur in the lifetime of your disciples?

Prabhupāda: No. This will happen at least 400,000's of years after. At least. So by that time...

Allen Ginsberg: They will go down, down, down for 400,000 years?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time my disciples will be with Kṛṣṇa. [laughter]

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: And those who will not follow them, they will see the fun, how they are being killed. [laughter]

Allen Ginsberg: Four hundred thousand years. Will people be still chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in 400,000...

Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Allen Ginsberg: Ah. So what will be left?

Prabhupāda: Nothing. Left will be "I'll kill you and eat you, and you shall kill me, you shall eat me." That will be left.

Allen Ginsberg: After ten thousand years?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There will be no grain, no milk, no sugar, no fruit. So I have to eat you, and you will have to eat me. Full facility for meat-eating. [laughter] Full facility. Kṛṣṇa is very kind. He'll give facility: "All right. Why cows and calves? You take your own son. Yes. Eat nicely." Just like serpents, snakes, they eat their own offsprings; tigers. So this will happen.

Allen Ginsberg: Kālī eats her own...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And there will be no brain to understand, no preacher, nothing else. Go. Go to..., to the dog. And then Kṛṣṇa will come: "All right, let Me kill you so that you are saved." So...

Allen Ginsberg: But you see it as actually a historical thing of ten thousand years for the chanting, of the diminishing chanting of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are...

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think more people will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or fewer?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. More people. Now it will increase.

Allen Ginsberg: Until?

Prabhupāda: Up to ten thousand years.

Allen Ginsberg: And then?

Prabhupāda: Then diminish.

Allen Ginsberg: So what is the purpose of, right now, a world increase...

Prabhupāda: People will take advantage of this up to ten thousand years. Then they will...

Allen Ginsberg: So this is like the last rope, the last gasp.

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Last gasp. Yes. So the sooner we take to shelter, shelter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is better.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, according to Vedic theory, when did this yuga begin? According to this Vedic theory... Or... This is śāstra?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: When did this yuga...?

Prabhupāda: Begin from this Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He introduced five hundred years ago, and it will continue now.

Hayagrīva: Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga has begun five thousand years ago.

Allen Ginsberg: Oh. Began five thousand years ago.

Kīrtanānanda: But this wave within Kali-yuga, in which Hare Kṛṣṇa increases and then diminishes, is about ten thousand years, and that began five hundred years ago.

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, the duration of life of Kali-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that, we have passed five thousand years. There is balance, 427,000's of years. Out of that, 10,000 years is nothing.

Allen Ginsberg: Where is all this...?

Prabhupāda: Vedic literature.

Allen Ginsberg: What...?

Prabhupāda: Padma Purāṇa. Purāṇas.

Allen Ginsberg: Bhāgavata Purāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata Purāṇa.

Allen Ginsberg: Has the detailed analysis of what goes on within the Kali-yuga?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. I'll read you sometimes.

Allen Ginsberg: There are translations of that. There are some translations of that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Twelfth Canto, the Kali-yuga descriptions are there.

Allen Ginsberg: Twelfth Canto.

Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto. And you will find that all the descriptions are coming to be true.

Guest (1): True.

Prabhupāda: Just like there is one statement, svīkaram eva udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." Now that is being done. And lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam [SB 12.2.6]

[A sacred place will be taken to consist of no more than a reservoir of water located at a distance, and beauty will be thought to depend on one's hairstyle. Filling the belly will become the goal of life, and one who is audacious will be accepted as truthful. He who can maintain a family will be regarded as an expert man, and the principles of religion will be observed only for the sake of reputation.]

"People will think that he has become very beautiful by keeping bunch of hairs." That is coming true. These are written there. All things are there in Bhāgavata history.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, in the Bhāgavata Purāṇa is there also provision for the Caitanya cult?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam [SB 11.5.32].

[In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṇa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.]

We have given that in that book, our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. That is the first quotation there.

Allen Ginsberg: So it's on this quotation from Bhāgavata Purāṇa that Caitanya built His system?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is program already presented, and He came to execute the program. Just like our meeting is already programmed; I come and execute it. That's all. That was previous. Clearly it is said, " 'In the Kali-yuga the Supreme Lord comes as one who always chants the holy name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, whose complexion is yellow.' Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, Fifth Chapter, 32 verse."

Allen Ginsberg: It's in there.

Prabhupāda: So we have accepted Lord Caitanya as Kṛṣṇa not fanatically. There are evidences in Mahābhārata, in Upaniṣads, in Purāṇas, in Bhāgavata, in all Vedic scripture.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, within this period of ten thousand years, only those who hear Kṛṣṇa's name and worship Kṛṣṇa by chanting...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]

That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Allen Ginsberg: So only those who practice Kṛṣṇa chanting can attain mokṣa.

Prabhupāda: They become immediately liberated and go back to home, back to Godhead.

Allen Ginsberg: And everybody else gets involved deeper and deeper in the yuga.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. So if anyone believes in the śāstras, they should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is intelligence, to take advantage of authorized scriptures. You'll find in the Bhāgavata, there is a history of Candragupta, and "The Yavanas will become kings." That means English occupation, Muhammadan occupation. Everything is there. And Buddha's appearance, kikaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati.

Kikaṭeṣu means in the Bihar province in India. Bhaviṣyati. Because Bhāgavata Purāṇa was written five thousand years ago, and Lord Buddha appeared about 2,600 years ago. So therefore it is stated, bhaviṣyati: "In future, just in the beginning of Kali-yuga, Lord will appear as Buddha. His mother's name will be Añjana, and his business will be to cheat the atheist."

Allen Ginsberg: To cheat the atheist.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sammohāya sūra-dviṣam [SB 1.3.24].

[Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.]

Sūra-dviṣam means atheists. Surat. Sura-dvisam means those who are envious of Lord's devotees. That means atheist. So to bewilder them. What is that bewildering? This atheist class, they became so much absorbed in this animal-killing, they forgot everything about God. So they said, "What is God? We don't mind." So Lord Buddha says, "Yes, there is no God." Lord's philosophy is, "There is no God. Void. There is no God. But what I say, you follow. Yes. That's all right." But he is God. Is it not cheating?

Allen Ginsberg: Well yes, except that he claims not..., to be neither God nor not God.

Prabhupāda: Huh? But he never said that "I am God." He said there is no God.

Allen Ginsberg: No. He doesn't say there's no God either. He says...

Prabhupāda: That's it. That's anyway.

Allen Ginsberg: He says, "All conceptions of the existence of the self, as well as all conceptions of the nonexistence of the self, as well as all conceptions of the existence of a supreme self, as well as all conceptions of the nonexistence of the supreme self are equally arbitrary, being only conceptions."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a jugglery of words. So his principle was that they did not believe in God. So still the Buddhists says, "You don't believe in God." So..., but they are worshiping God, Lord Buddha. There are so many temples, in the same way as we worship. So this is transcendental cheating.

Allen Ginsberg: Transcendental cheating.

Prabhupāda: [chuckling] Just like sometimes father has to cheat his child. That is not cheating; that is welfare. But apparently it likes cheating. A child is insistent on some point. "Yes, yes. You are all right. But you do this like this. Yes, you are very good boy." Like that. But Vaiṣṇava, in Vaiṣṇava literature, in Vedic literature, he is God. The godless worshiping God in a different way. If there is nothing, why they should worship Buddha even?

Allen Ginsberg: They don't... Well, strictly speaking, one does not worship Buddha.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they have many big, big temples in Burma and Japan.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. But the practice in the temples is, like, empty.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. That is a little different. That's all. But the temple worship and God worship is there.

Allen Ginsberg: In, like, in Zen Buddhism and in...

Prabhupāda: That is later invention. Originally Lord Buddha, the statue of Lord Buddha, worshiped all..., all over...

Allen Ginsberg: Originally there was no Buddha. There was a wheel for the doctrine, for the dharma. There was a wheel, and then for a parasol.

Prabhupāda: We see from historical, archeological evidences, all over...

Allen Ginsberg: Then, when the Europeans came to India...

Prabhupāda: It is not the question, Europeans.

Allen Ginsberg: Then they made a statue of a human-faced Buddha.

Guest (1): No, no. Buddha's temple was much before then. [indistinct]

Allen Ginsberg: What it had as a...

Guest (1): No. Buddha was a yuga-pracāra. That is very old, old.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Very old.

Guest (1): Because I saw the date, the posture of Lord Buddha when he died in a place, in a village, and I saw Buddha twenty feet long, gold Buddha statue, just the way he lied when he was dead.

Allen Ginsberg: Pari-nirvāṇa, yes.

Guest (1): Pari-nirvāṇa pose, exactly. Twenty-five..., twenty-two feet he was, long. And it was made just after his death.

Allen Ginsberg: What I had understood is that like the Jews and the Muslims, the original first few centuries of Buddhist meditation made use of a wheel for the dharma, or a parasol, or a bo tree as the image of Buddha, as at Sanchi. But no, but no...

Guest (1): So long Buddha was living. After that, when Buddha died, they started making his statue, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the archeological evidence. Archeological evidence is that Buddha's statues were worshiped.

Allen Ginsberg: The museum at Mathurā, I think, had the earliest human statues of Buddha, which are Greek nature.

Guest (1): Because Candragupta's style... [Bengali] And they had many temple...

Prabhupāda: No, Buddha is worshiped by statue. That is historical. That is historical fact. And there are many temples in Burma, China and in Japan, all these Buddhist countries. But these Buddhist temples began not exactly after Buddha's disappearance. At least after one thousand years. That is a fact.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. That's much later.

Prabhupāda: Yes, much later. Because when Buddhism was driven out of India, then in Japan, China, Burma, the Buddhism flourished. Yes. That is after..., almost after one thousand years. Otherwise whole India was Buddhist. Whole India. Sometimes the Jagannātha temple... They interpret. Actually it is not. They say that is also Buddhist.

Allen Ginsberg: Which?

Prabhupāda: Jagannātha temple.

Allen Ginsberg: I think I told you I had darśana with Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. I got inside the temple. I was silent and made believe I was a mad..., a madman. I had long hair, and I had pyjamas, white khadi, khadi cloth.

Prabhupāda: Just like some Punjabi.

Allen Ginsberg: So I went inside. And when anybody came to ask me anything, because I was afraid of opening my mouth...

Prabhupāda: There is no enemy of a dumb. Bhuvar śatru nyāya.

Allen Ginsberg: So I just kept my mouth closed and got down on my knees and touched their feet. So they all thought that I was crazy, and so they kept away from me. [laughter] So I got inside.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. So you had a nice view of Jagannātha?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Allen Ginsberg: It was very beautiful. I was there about..., with Peter also, about a week, a week there.

Prabhupāda: So you saw once or several times?

Allen Ginsberg: One time. I was afraid to go in and out many times. I figured I got away with it once, and I didn't want to...

Prabhupāda: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple.

Guest (1): [Bengali] Jesus Christ was there.

Prabhupāda: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly.

Guest (1): Vidyāpati.

Prabhupāda: And he was discussing philosophical talks with them.

Allen Ginsberg: According to the Aquarian Gospel, Christ was in Jagannātha Purī?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And he saw Ratha-yātrā, and there is..., name of Kṛṣṇa is there.

Allen Ginsberg: Ratha-yātrā.

Prabhupāda: Ratha-yātrā, as we are performing, San Francisco. So Lord Jesus Christ saw.

Allen Ginsberg: We went to Mathurā also.

Prabhupāda: Ah, Mathurā. Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: For several days. And Vṛndāvana for about a week.

Prabhupāda: You stayed there, Vṛndāvana?

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, about a week.

Prabhupāda: Oh. You have seen Vṛndāvana nicely.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, we went from one temple to another, sang, sat by the river, went to the little garden where the tree is.

Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana.

Allen Ginsberg: And met two bhakti devotees. The one I mentioned, Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji and Bankibihari.

Prabhupāda: Bankibihari?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. They translate from Mīrābhai.

Prabhupāda: Oh. English.

Allen Ginsberg: Into English. Good translations. Good translations. They were published in the Bhakti-vidya-bhavan series. In that series. They have four or five books.

Prabhupāda: Oh. They have five books they have written?

Allen Ginsberg: One Sufis, Yogīs, Saints, poets like Muktesvara. And then another of Mīrā. Two volumes of Mīrā with a life of Mīrā. And then one on the Kumbha-melā, a book on the Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: They are good scholars.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Good scholars. They know Blake also. They know English.

Prabhupāda: Mātājī?

Allen Ginsberg: Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji.

Guest (1): Mathurā, I think this Mātājī lives so[?].

Allen Ginsberg: In in...

Prabhupāda: No. She is not. She does not...

Allen Ginsberg: In, in Vṛndāvana.

Guest (1): In Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana[?]. In which year you have been in Vṛndāvana?

Allen Ginsberg: Which year? 1962.

Prabhupāda: Oh. At that time I was there.

Allen Ginsberg: We probably passed on the street. [laughs] You were there then, '62?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I left Vṛndāvana 1965. From 1956 I am there, I was there.

Allen Ginsberg: I would like to go and live for a while and to stay. I liked it when I was there. It would be a good place to live.

Hayagrīva: You're going next year?

Allen Ginsberg: I think pretty soon I'm going to be going back. Yeah. I have to stabilize the farm I'm on.

Hayagrīva: Good luck.

Allen Ginsberg: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]