Room Conversation , Colombus , 1969-05-10

Prabhupāda: Param Brahman. Param means the chief, param.

Kīrtanānanda: Param Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Param Brahman. We are all Brahmans. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Every one of us, living entity, Brahman. But He is the chief Brahman. Just like everyone... Just like you are all Americans, but your president is the chief American. Do you understand? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the chief Brahman. You are all Brahman, but He is the chief Brahman. Is it clear? That's all right.

[break] ...that "This boy hears very nicely. He does not go away," the first impression he gave to other Godbrothers. "So I shall make him disciple." These very words he said. Actually, I did not follow him in the beginning. High philosophical speaking, and I was new boy. I could not follow him, but actually I was so much glad to hear him. That's all. [chuckles] So that was my qualification, whatever you may say. I was simply asking, "When Guru Mahārāja will speak? When he will speak? When?" And I will sit down and go on hearing, and I understand or not understand—others will disperse—I will not disperse. That he marked. Yes. First.

There was first one instance. At that time I was not initiated. There was a circumambulation of whole Vṛndāvana. So although I was not initiated, I was one of the important members of the... So I thought, "Let me go. What these people are doing, circumambulating all over Vṛndāvana?" So I went to Mathurā. Then I went to the Vṛndāvana interior, which place was known as Kosi. So in that Koṣi one of my Godbrother declared that "Prabhupāda is going tomorrow back to Mathurā. So he will speak this evening. So anyone who wants to hear him, they can stay. And others may prepare to..."

[aside:] Sit down.

Pradyumna: Two people just came.

Prabhupāda: Oh. All right.

Pradyumna: Can the boys downstairs bring them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were to go to see some other temple, which is called Śeṣayī Temple. So although I was new man, I did not like to go to see the Śeṣayī Temple. I decided that "I shall hear." So at that time I was new, so all other, some of my important Godbrothers, they were sitting like this, and I was sitting. At last, you see. But he knew that "This boy is new." Everyone has gone, all others, except a few selected Godbrothers. So he marked it that "This boy is interested to hear me."

So hearing is very important. Hearing. Just like Arjuna heard from Kṛṣṇa.

[aside] Come on. [people entering]

[break] ...because I was serious of hearing, and therefore now I am serious about kīrtanaṁ, means speaking, or preaching. Do you follow what I said? Yes. So one who is serious about hearing, he can become a future nice preacher. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ. Next stage is developed. That is development. If one has actually heard nicely, then he will speak nicely. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ.

Then consciousness will automatically develop, because when you speak or you hear, unless your mind is concentrated, your consciousness is right, you cannot rightly hear or speak. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. And then the development, "How I shall serve Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is so loving. Kṛṣṇa is so great," that automatically comes. Not silent, but activity. Pāda-sevanam means that activity begins immediately.

In this way, last item is sarvātma-snapanaṁ. Sarvātma..., ātma-samarpaṇam, sarvātma-samarpaṇam. Bali Mahārāja, just like: giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. Then, when Vamanadeva asked, "Now, Bali Mahārāja, you have lost everything. Still I have got another leg, another foot, to place." "Yes. There is one thing. It is my head. Come on." [chuckles]

So everything he said, and Lord Vamanadeva: "Yes. You have now purchased Me. You have now purchased Me. So I shall remain your doorman here, standing always to give you protection." So Kṛṣṇa became purchased by him, and He remained his doorman. Just see His mercy. Dvārā. Dvārī. Dvāri means doorman.

So by serving Kṛṣṇa, nobody is loser; he is gainer. He is gainer permanently, eternally. And we do not know what is the value of that gain now. Because we are materially covered, we think service means just like service in this world. This service is māyā. Nobody will be satisfied. Nobody. You cannot satisfy, neither you will be satisfied. The best example is in your country, that your president, Mr. Kennedy, he gave you the best service, and the result was that you killed him. You or some of your member killed him. That means his service was not appreciated, although he gave his best service.

Similarly, in the material world, whatever service you render, that is spoiling time. But you render service to Kṛṣṇa, you will be satisfied, Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, and as Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, everyone will be satisfied. So take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness service by hearing, by speaking, by remembering, by giving actually service, by worshiping, by making friendship and, after all, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection.

Now these new boys have come. Let them question and I shall answer. That will be nice. You have heard something about Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So where from these [indistinct]?

Pradyumna: Bhurijana sent them. Bhurijana sent money for tickets to go to Columbus.

Prabhupāda: He has sent the tickets?

Pradyumna: Money.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So engage all yourselves in the service of Kṛṣṇa. It is very pleasing and, what is called, encouraging, enlivening. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is frustration. That stage is coming to your country. Therefore the boys are becoming hippies. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is—that is natural—frustration.

There is a good example in our country, one Mr. C. R. Das. He was a great leader, next to Gandhi, important political leader. So he was on the topmost of... He was lawyer, barrister. He was earning fifty thousand dollars monthly, very rich man. And he was making charity, and he was spending like thing. He was drunkard number one, woman-hunter number one, and everything. Because he had money, he could enjoy everything. But he was not happy.

So one day he was sitting with his wife. Just like in the street, he was looking over. So his wife asked him—his name was Chittaranjan—"Chittaranjan, you are earning so much. You are spending. People are very much fond of you. You are a great leader. Why you always remain morose? What do you want to be? You have got now everything." So at that time one mendicant, a sannyāsī, was passing. So Chittaranjan said, "I want to be like him. Then I will be happy. I don't want to enjoy. I want to beggar..., to be beggar-like." You see? So that time is coming to your country.

So these hippies, they are frustrating. They have given up everything. We can study their psychic movement. They are not satisfied. That is the main principle. That is natural, to accept adversity voluntarily. Adversity. So this is frustration. But before reaching to that point of frustration, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you reach the real standard of happiness, because everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa.

I shall give you another example. Suppose you have stolen something from somebody's house or some friends. You will not be happy, even possessing that thing, stolen property. But if someday you come to return that thing to that friend, you will be happy. What do you think, Hayagrīva?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will feel relieved. So therefore the real thing is that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are artificially enjoying the stolen property. Therefore if you go on enjoying like that, then this frustration will come. But before coming to that frustration, if we return this property to Kṛṣṇa, then we become happy.

So best thing is to return everything to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you will not be a loser; you will be gainer, just like Bali Mahārāja. Actually, if you think, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Nothing belongs to you. This is māyā. Kṛṣṇa's property you are thinking "mine." Is this land of American belongs to you actually? It is stolen property. You have stolen from the Red Indians or from Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is. Not you; everyone. Somebody is claiming, "This much my property," somebody is claiming, "This much my property," but this much or that much, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. It is stolen property.

There is another example in Indian words, that hira cauri kiya abhicaurya, khīra caurī kiyā abhicaura. Hira means diamond, and khīra means... What is that called? Cucumber, a small? So if somebody has stolen a cucumber from other's tree, so he is captured. And another man has stolen some diamond, he is also arrested. So from the police, both are thieves. If the man says, "Oh, what I have stolen? I have stolen a little cucumber. It is nothing, worth not even two cent or one cent. Why you are arresting me? He is thief. He has stolen big diamond," no, in the eyes of law, he is also thief, he is also thief.

Everyone is thief. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is thief. He'll not be happy. The best thing is to return whatever he has possessed: "Kṛṣṇa, it is Yours. Take it." Finish business. Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora [Śaraṇāgati].

Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song... Now, everything we possess in mind. Actually you don't possess. Suppose I am possessing all this. As soon as I go from this body, all possession will remain here. I'll not take anything. So I don't possess.

But in mind I am thinking, "Oh, this is mine. This is mine. Where is another box? Why it is not coming?" And possessing in mind. If I leave this body, either the box here or in the Chicago or anywhere else, what is the difference? There is no difference. But because I am possessing in the mind, "Oh, that box is mine," so I am asking, "Whether it is Chicago or it is here, it is there? Why it is not coming?"

So possession in the mind. Actually you don't possess. Mānasa deha geha. So by that supposingly possessing, we have got our mind, we have got our body, then expansion of body—wife, children, family, society, country. In this way we possess so many things. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora: "Now whatever I possess—either in the mind or in the family or in the society or in the body—whatever I have got, I surrender unto You, my dear Kṛṣṇa."

Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu..., arpilun tuā pade nanda kiśora: "Nanda-kiśora, O the son of Nanda, I give You, unto You." Marobi rakhobi, yo icchā tohāra: "Now, whatever You like, You can do, either You kill me or You protect me, as You like. You are the proprietor. You have right to do everything." This is surrender. This is full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that is not possible immediately; therefore we have to practice. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6].

And if we die in that Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram... In the particular type of consciousness, when one gives up this body, then he is transferred into that position next life.

So in this way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we are able, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ, by practicing always, constantly, that situation of consciousness, then next life, after giving up... Why next life? This life also. One person who is in always Kṛṣṇa's service this life or that life, he is with Kṛṣṇa. He is with Kṛṣṇa. Any person within Kṛṣṇa consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. I may not understand, but Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.

So you American boys and girls, you should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy. Your position is to take up, because you are on the top of the material happiness. Now you take it. You be saved. Otherwise this frustration is coming. That will come. Just like C. R. Das. He, out of that frustration, he gave up everything. He sacrificed his life for political. And what is that value of that sacrifice? You may become a great man of your country in the estimation of your people, but not in the estimation of Kṛṣṇa. You may become a great man in the estimation of your country, but in others' estimation, your enemy, "Oh, this man is dead. Now our enemy is finished. That's nice."

So another side there is imperfection. Not everybody is satisfied by your service. But if you serve Kṛṣṇa, everybody is satisfied. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance, nobody will be dissatisfied. At least they will say, "Ah..." Just like in the paper, "The boys are very nice." You see? You have seen. Instead of not very sympathetic, they have remarked this, "Oh, these boys are very nice." At least, people will appreciate, "Oh, these boys are... These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice. They do not smoke. They do not drink. They have no illicit sex life. They do not kill for satisfy the tongue. They are satisfied with natural food. And their behavior is very good." Who will deny it?

And the other asset they cannot estimate, that how much he is in contact with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. That, they have no estimating power. But at least they will appreciate these external features. One clergyman, when I was going to Hawaii, he was talking with me. He said, "Swāmījī, I have seen your disciples have a very nice face, glowing face." And "Yes, certainly. They must be. They are making spiritual progress."

So it is not difficult. It is very easy. If you take to this, you have everything sublime and your life becomes sublime. You haven't got to give up anything. The material needs are there: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is not disallowed, but adjusted for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot allow eating, mating, like animals, cats and dogs. No. That is not possible. You'll eat, you'll mate, but just like human being, civilized man. Then what is the distinction between animal and man if we behave like animals?

Kṛṣṇa, God, is pure. So if you keep yourself in impure condition of life, then how you can make progress towards purity, highest perfection, purity? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12].

In the Tenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa that "You are the purest of all." If you are going to reach the purest of all, how can remain impure?

This tapasya... This voluntary restraint means tapasya. Tapasya, there is a Sanskrit word, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily restraining or accepting some suffering condition. That is not actually suffering condition. Just like a patient. A doctor says, "You cannot take it." So he has the desire to take it, but doctor says that "You cannot take it." Therefore he mentally thinks that "Doctor has restricted this. I am suffering." Actually he is curing, but he thinks that "I am suffering." And when he's cured, he sees, "Oh, doctor is good friend. He told me not to indulge in this. Now I have done it, I am now cured."

So tapasya means voluntarily one has to accept some so-called suffering. That is required to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—voluntarily acceptance, some so-called suffering. Tapaḥ divyam. That suffering is for transcendental realization. That is good. Tapo divyaṁ yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet [SB 5.5.1].

Śuddhyet means your existence will be purified. And existence purified means you advance to realize unlimited happiness.

What is the disease? Disease means there is limitation of eating, limitation of sleeping. Everything is limited. Limitation of mating. A diseased man cannot have sex life unlimitedly or whatever. There is restriction. A tuberculosis person is completely restricted, "You cannot have sex life." So that restriction is for curing him. And the cure means he enjoys—whatever he thinks enjoyment, that is unlimited. Yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. Brahma-saukhyam, eternal happiness, unending happiness. So for acquiring unending, eternal happiness, if you have to accept some voluntary suffering in this life, everyone should do that.

So, if you ask... You can ask some questions. ādau gurv-āśrayam sad-dharma-pṛcchā [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74].

If you go to a person, superior, or spiritual master, then you should ask. You should be inquisitive for better understanding. Sad-dharma-pṛcchāt. Jijñāsu. Jijñāsu means inquisitive, jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21], inquisitive for higher, happy life.

Inquisitiveness. So what is your inquisitiveness?

Guest (1): Would you say something about Christ and his relation to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Christ? Jesus Christ?

Prabhupāda: Christ is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. You become like Christ, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Don't you understand Christ, that he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? You don't understand it? Then you become like Christ, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Madhumaṅgala: What does Madhumaṅgala mean?

Prabhupāda: That is not very good question.

Madhumaṅgala: [indistinct] told me to ask.

Prabhupāda: Madhumaṅgala, you have explained when I initiated. Madhumaṅgala was one of the friend of Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Guest (2): What was Arjuna's relation to Kṛṣṇa, I mean, as concise as you can put it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Kīrtanānanda: What was Arjuna's relationship to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Friendship. That is also... There are five kinds of relationship. Just like "God is great." That is simply feeling the greatness of God. Then, when he feels exactly how God is great, then naturally there will be an inclination to serve God. That is called servitude. First neutrality estimation... That is called śānta-rasa, neutral; no activity but simply appreciating, "God is great." Simply appreciation. And then servitude. When the appreciation is complete, "Oh, why not serve God? He is so great. He is giving us so many things. Let me return something. Let me do some service of Him." Servitude. That is further development of the appreciation of the greatness of God.

And then further development is friendship. Friendship means... Service means I ask you, "Please give me a glass of water." You give me. And friendship means you are thinking, "How my friend will be..., now he may be wanting a glass of water." So before asking me, if you give me, "I think you may require a glass of water," that is friendship. Friendship means feeling friend's welfare always. Suhṛt. Friendship is not simply chatting. Friendship means thinking, "How my friend will be happy?" This is friendship.

Then that friendship, when further developed, that is parenthood. Just like parents, they have no other consideration. They want to see, "How my child will be happy always?" And farther development is conjugal love, just like man and woman, male and female, that love. That love includes everything—that appreciation of greatness, that servitude of servant, the friendship, then maternal love, and farther, offering everything for the lover. That is most perfectional stage of love.

So in this way we have got five kinds of direct relationship, and there are seven kinds of indirect relationship. That is not on the platform of love. That is on the platform of enmity. Just like Kaṁsa. Kaṁsa was thinking of Kṛṣṇa as enemy, so he was also Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was thinking of how to kill Kṛṣṇa. So that is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but indirectly.

So there are, indirect, seven rasas: ghastly, inimical, and sometimes, seeing Kṛṣṇa, one laughs, derided... In so many ways there are many indirect... Without relationship, nobody can remain. The seven kinds of relationship are indirect. And five kinds of relationship is direct. So we want to be situated in the direct relationship.

Kīrtanānanda: All of the conditioned souls are in an indirect relationship.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Everyone is in a relationship.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be some relation. Without relationship one cannot exist, because he is part and parcel. Just like persons in the prison house. They are not out of government. There is relationship with the government, but that is indirect. The criminals, they do not appreciate the service of the government. Government is bothered about his existence. Some extra...

Instead of receiving some service from him to the state, the state has got to spend unnecessarily for him. That is a botheration. So those who are in indirect relationship with Kṛṣṇa, they are botheration. They are simply giving trouble to Kṛṣṇa. But there is relationship.

Hayagrīva: Is the humorous direct or indirect? One in humor?

Prabhupāda: Humor, humor is practically in every direct relationship. And indirect also, there is humor. "I am thinking of you as enemy"—that is also another type of humor. [chuckles] Yes.

Pradyumna: Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva souls also when they are...

Prabhupāda: Everything for jīva souls. All relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly. Jīva soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness.

So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God," "There is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship. Anyone, so-called, I mean to say, spiritualist or transcendentalist, if he is claiming that "There is no God," "I am God," "There is voidness," these are all disturbing position, different symptoms of this disease of māyā. It is disease.

How one can think of that he is God? That means he does not know what is God. If I say here that "I am President Nixon," would you accept it? Would you accept? Any one of you, if I say that "I am President Nixon," will you accept? Why? Why? Why?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Why you do not accept me? I say, "I am President Nixon." Why do you not accept? Why?

Woman: I would say you are, if you say you are. [laughter]

Kīrtanānanda: You don't have the characteristics.

Prabhupāda: No. That means you are not rascal. You are sane, that you do not accept me as President... That is one thing. At least you are not insane. So if I say "God," and you accept, then how much insane you are, just try to understand. How much insanity is there, one who is claiming that "I am God" and one who is accepting that he is God. This is insanity.

Woman: Are we not all one?

Prabhupāda: One is... That is different thing. You are not one with President Nixon?

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then are you President Nixon?

Woman: He's a human being. He's part of me.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. He is American. He is human being. In so many qualities you are one. But you cannot claim for that you are President Nixon. You should understand in that way. In so many respect, qualities, you are one with God, but that does not mean you are God. God is one. That means you have no complete understanding.

Just like in spite of your becoming American or human being, you deny to identify yourself with President Nixon, because you have full knowledge of President Nixon and yourself. And as soon as you say, "I am God," that means you have no full knowledge of God. You are insane. You do not know what is God. That very thing immediately asserts that you are unknown factor about God.

God is said, "Great," but you are claiming that greatness. That means you do not know how great He is. A teeny factor, you are claiming that "I am God," without having that greatness. That means insane, insanity. The same way: if you claim that "I am President Nixon," that is insanity. Similarly, God is..., how great He is, how much greater than President Nixon. You deny to become one with President Nixon, and you accept to be one with God? How much insane you are. Just try to understand. Yes?

Child: How many arms does Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva have?

Prabhupāda: That you shall know later on. Not now.

Janārdana: I've read in Bhagavad-gītā that he who knows the self does not do action nor causes action to be done. So what is the soul's..., the spirit soul's relationship to actions performed both in material consciousness and in spiritual, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Material consciousness means forgetting God. When one forgets God, that is material consciousness. Material consciousness is called māyā. Actually, one should not forget. But if he forgets somehow or other, that is material consciousness. Naturally nobody forgets his father and mother. But if, some way or other, he forgets, that is a special circumstances, and that is called māyā, illusion.

Just like any one of you who are existing, you must have a father and mother. That is a fact. Without father and mother, your existence cannot be. Now, if you cannot say who is your father and mother—if you do not know—this forgetfulness, this is called māyā. Actually it should not happen, but somehow or other, if you are asked, "Who is your parents?" you cannot say, this is called māyā.

But there must be some father and mother. Without father and mother, there cannot be an existence. You cannot deny that. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no father and mother." That is not possible. You may not know who is your father, mother. That is a different thing. But you cannot say, "Oh, I have no father, mother."

So this denial, that "I don't believe in God," is a existence like that, one who has forgotten his father and mother. That is māyā, and that is material consciousness. Denying God in different way, "There is no God," that is also denial. "I don't believe in God"—that is also denial. "God is impersonal, void." Anyway, whatever you say in that way, that is all insanity, māyā.

Maya means insanity. Another meaning of māyā means insanity. Just like when a man becomes insane, that is false. It is expected that he should not be insane. By treatment he is brought again to his original consciousness. Similarly, māyā means insanity, forgetfulness of God. And by Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment he comes to the original consciousness, he becomes a cured man.

Actually māyā means which has no existence. Māyā has no existence. But sometimes it is there. Just like the sky's cover. This covering is not reality. The reality is this sky, clear sky, but somehow it is now covered; you cannot see the clear sky. So there is temporary, temporary illusion. Now, if I see the cloud only and if I say, "Oh, there is no sun. There is no illumination," or "There is no clear sky," that is insanity.

Because I cannot see—under certain circumstances, I deny it—that is my insanity. Therefore you have to approach to a man who knows that there is sunlight, there is sun, there is clear sky... If you go there... You require all this education, knowledge.

By knowledge one transcends māyā, or material existence. What is the difference between ordinary man and Kṛṣṇa conscious man? They are also living in this world, in this apartment; everything is being utilized like others. We are also eating, sleeping also. But what is the difference? Our difference—that we accept that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa; others do not. That's all. That is māyā.

Everything actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. He does not know. He thinks, "It belongs to me," or "This, my nation, this, my country, this, that," so many things. He is manufacturing. And we know the simple truth, that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, so let everything be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: So we understand that under material consciousness the living entity is being forced to act.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: His actions are quite automatic under the laws of material nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, action is there. Because you are living entity, you are active.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but they are being dictated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a man in fever talking nonsense. So that is due to fever.

Kīrtanānanda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are the actions of the jīva similarly controlled by Kṛṣṇa's superior energy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Kīrtanānanda: But everything is being controlled ultimately by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Either by inferior energy or superior energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: So his activities are never independent, either in Kṛṣṇa or...

Prabhupāda: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence?

So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by māyā always, and we are thinking "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent.

He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe.

So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. On some intoxication. A voluntarily accept dependence of something māyā. That's all. Who is independent? Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is māyā. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Devotee: Prabhupada, often when we...

Prabhupāda: So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent. That is material consciousness. Falsely. He is not independent, but he is thinking falsely, "I am independent." This is māyā. Just like in dream he is falsely thinking there is a tiger. There is no tiger, but he is actuated by that false impression, "Oh, tiger is eating me. It has attacked me. Save me."

So this material existence means because he is insane, he is thinking there are so many problems: "The tiger is there. He is attacking me," this, that, "So many enemies, friends...," creating so many things. But they are all false. But he is attacked by that false hallucination. That's all. This is māyā.

Everyone is thinking, "Oh, there are so many problems I have to solve. I have to make this, that, this, so many." But he has no problem. He has no problem. His only problem is to..., how to accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He says, "Yes, you accept Me. Simply chant 'Kṛṣṇa,' I am yours. That's all." But my..., I am so misfortunate that I cannot chant even. All problems solved simply by chanting "Kṛṣṇa."

Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches that: "O Kṛṣṇa, You are so kind that You have come to me in the sound vibration, word, 'Kṛṣṇa.' I can very easily chant, and You remain with me. But I am so misfortunate that I have no attraction even for this." You say people, "You chant 'Kṛṣṇa' you'll get everything," they will not believe it.

If you say, "You press your nose. You pay me fifty dollars. I'll give you some nice mantra and this, that. You make your head like this, leg like this," "Oh," he'll say, "here is something." Something. "And this Swāmījī says, 'Simply chant Kṛṣṇa.' Oh, what this is?" Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi durdaiva: "But I am so unfortunate that You have become so easily available in this age, but I am so unfortunate, I cannot accept it."

So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness so easily being distributed, but they are so unfortunate, they cannot accept. Just see. And you give them bluff, you cheat them—they will, "Ah, yes, welcome. Yes." They'll welcome it. And cheaters are always ready: "Oh, there are so many customers are being cheated. Let me take advantage of it." So my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This world is the society of cheaters and cheated." The members are somebody are cheating, and somebody are cheated. The association of cheaters and cheated. So we want to save them from this society of cheaters and cheated.

Janārdana: Prabhupāda, often when we'll be performing..., doing something, some activity during our day, and so many things will go wrong, and we become frustrated...

Prabhupāda: Well, when one is a professional, there may be something wrong. That doesn't matter. But you try to discharge your duties rightly, whatever you are prescribed to do. Then everything will come to the right point. Your only business is to follow the four principles of regulative life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa sixteen rounds. So there may be sometimes mistake. That will be corrected automatically.

Because we are coming from a different platform, so it may be. That is also said in the Bha... Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]:

"If one is found doing mistake or doing something wrong, but because he is sticking to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is sādhu." Sādhu means a holy man. He is holy. He is not doing any wrong consciously, but due to habit...

Suppose just like most of you were, in your former life, you were smoking or taking intoxication. But by some influence, if you sometimes take to it, yes, if you are conscious, "Oh, I have done wrong," but that is excused if you have done unconscious. But if you think that "Now I am Kṛṣṇa conscious. Whatever I do, it is right," then it is great sin. But accidentally it happens—that is excused—never mind.

So accidental mistake is not dangerous. Willful mistake is dangerous. That we should be careful. We should be very careful always so that accidental mistakes also may not take place. But if it takes place, it is excused.

Devotee: Can haṭha-yoga hinder or help Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or is it...?

Prabhupāda: Hinder. Yes. Because it is useless, simply wasting time. You cannot perform haṭha-yoga in this age. You do not follow the rules and regulations. You are simply bluffed. Do you know what is the rules and regulation of haṭha-yoga factually?

Devotee: Not actually.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to select a secluded place. Haṭha-yoga is not practiced in assembly of so many men. Just you go to a haṭha-yoga class: There are hundreds of members practicing, and he is collecting money, five dollars per seat. And you are thinking, "I am practicing." That is useless waste of time and money. Haṭha-yoga is not practiced in that way. You have to practice in a secluded place, alone. Do you do that?

Devotee: Yes. Not... No. I guess I don't.

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult in this age. Then you have to restrain yourself in so many things. Complete free from sex life. You have to eat under certain direction, you have to... So many things there are. These rules are not followed. Simply they have got some bodily gymnastic sitting posture. They are thinking, "I am practicing." No. That is one of the item. So all the items cannot be observed in this age. Therefore it is wasting. [break] "...he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." This is the goal of yoga practice.

So that is possible very easily by this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not by any other process. And the ultimate goal is here. One should be always abiding with God, worshiping Him, trans..., loving transcendental service, and intimately united with Him. Intimately. This intimate unity means that five kinds of relationship. That is the perfection of yoga. This is the... When Kṛṣṇa has advised yoga practice, sāṅkhya-yoga... You have Bhagavad-gītā? There is sāṅkhya-yoga. You'll find in the forty-seventh verse. This is the version.

Devotee: There's no value in keeping the body fit through exercise?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: There's no value in keeping the body fit through exercise?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become very healthy. But does it mean that health is the perfection of life? Do you mean to say healthy life will not die, will not change his body? So health is required, but health is not the ultimate goal of life. Ultimate goal of life is here.

Guest (3): Buddha taught very similar things to what the Gītā taught also, didn't he? Are there agreeances there, agreement in certain places what Buddha taught and what the Gītā teaches?

Prabhupāda: Do you follow Buddha?

Guest (3): Uh, no.

Prabhupāda: You simply talk of him? You practice Buddha if you appreciate him. You give up everything like Buddha and meditate. But that you will not do. Then what is the talking of..., useless talking about this? Do something. Either you believe Buddha or Jesus Christ or Kṛṣṇa, do something. Don't talk simply. Lord Buddha is very nice. He gave up his kingdom in youthful life. He was prince. He thought, "It is all nonsense. Let me meditate."

Do like that. That is the disease. We won't do anything. We talk much of this, that, this, that. Do anything, but do it perfectly. "Jack of all trade, master of none." That is not good. Be master of something. It doesn't differ. Either you follow Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter much. But do it perfectly. That is our request. [end]